The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News • Hacker News Board

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#471

Post by eitland » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:04 PM UTC

crispyambulance wrote: post #437

AcerbicZero wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nice thing about having discussions based on fact is that if "the data" is bad, its just another avenue for discussion. That doesn't mean we have to re-hash everything from first principals, and it certainly doesn't mean that compelling rhetoric + poor data might "win", but it sure does help. People can have a productive discussion on the veracity (origins/malleability are not good reasons to ignore data by thems…

> The nice thing about having discussions based on fact... Certainly that kind of positivist approach is valuable and warranted for much but not all of the subject-matter on HN. If you're discussing technical subject matter, stuff like the inner workings of regular expressions, programming language features, electronic components, sure, it's all about "the facts". Things are different, however, in discussions about h…

> Things are different, however, in discussions about human affairs, political, inter-personal topics, social movements, historical interpretations, art, design, music, aesthetics, business and other topics in the human experience. These discussions DO EXIST on HN.

I'll bite.

Data can do a lot to improve discussions about history, politics and business.

I'd also argue that data can improve discussions about seemingly subjective things such as design.

> And NO, sorry, pure facts many not be enough or might be incomplete or out-of-reach for that subject-matter.

In fact I'd say that I'm close to saying those are the only discussions worth having about certain topics.

If I like a design and you don't that brings us nowhere. If either of us can bring some data and say 72% of the testers prefered it strongly, - but colorblind people struggled with it - that is something that might give both of us some value and might lead to better results.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#472

Post by dmix » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

dunkelheit wrote: post #147

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

> HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right"

I'm so happy I don't see the world this way. This type of worldview is so tribalistic.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#473

Post by manfredo » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #472

dunkelheit wrote: post #147

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

> HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right" I'm so happy I don't see the world this way. This type of worldview is so tribalistic.

I didn't read this comment as tribalistic. At it's most cynical, it's pointing out that HN manages to capture a pretty broad range of perspectives despite people's tribalistic tendencies.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#474

Post by julienreszka » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

balozi wrote: post #305

Call me cynical but that piece reads like an ad. Normally you see this sort of articles when an entity is trying to raise it's profile for some reason. Maybe a funding round coming up, asset sale, IPO, etc.

They are preparing for government audits of their censorship practices

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#475

Post by cowabungacode » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:11 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #472

dunkelheit wrote: post #147

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

> HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right" I'm so happy I don't see the world this way. This type of worldview is so tribalistic.

The idea that anyone would refer to people who champion for social justice as a "cesspool" is so disheartening. Equally disheartening is the idea that people find it a strength of HN that it is a haven for the hateful, illogical and damaging rhetoric of the modern Nazis, or the "alt-right".

Positive discussion is frequently derailed and halted by the "alt-right" presence on HN. Their presence here should not be welcomed, much less seen as a strength of the community.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#476

Post by tosh » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:11 PM UTC

The profile was exciting to read. Similar to devouring "making of" bonus material that used to be bundled with dvds.

Made me think: I'd like to read/hear more from dang & sctb and how they look at things.

Have you ever thought about something like a podcast or blog or something like a microblog or commented bookmark feed?

edit: completely forgot: thank you so much for pouring your hearts and souls into this community.

like another commenter already noted: hn is one of the few remaining well moderated corners of the web. feels a bit like all the other elves already left middle earth. it is wonderful to have you.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#477

Post by cowabungacode » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:15 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #448

dunkelheit wrote: post #147

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

> both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right" I definitely want to give credit to dang and sctb for making it that way. It could have gone differently. In particular, the no-politics argument is basically a fancy way of saying "nothing that challenges the status quo please". [1] I really appreciate them trying to keep the forum in a state where these discussion can at least happen. I would have left long ago if…

> I would have left long ago if flagging had continued to be used to kill topics.

Flagging is frequently used to kill topics still. Climate change articles are still flagged mercilessly, before any discussion starts and without regard for the high-quality of the articles.

dang as a moderator has specifically said that articles about Russia hacking elections are penalized prior to any votes or comments starting (edit: I believe this particular issue is done by the 'moderators' themselves manually or through a filter, not through user-flags. they are not just moderating discussion, they are filtering which topics you see in the first place, on their own).

The discussion here is framed by people who do not want to talk about certain interesting Hacker and Startup related issues, like global climate change or the stability of democracy with technology.

Flags are a common tool used by the community here to shape the discussion before it starts, hiding topics entirely from view that the community would otherwise vote and discuss.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#478

Post by gwbas1c » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:20 PM UTC

rusk wrote: post #178

dunkelheit wrote: post #147

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

> both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right" both and neither. Partisan discussions, or even any kind of bitching at all ... are outright discouraged. I often step out of line in this regard and don't always agree, but I'm also confident that folk on "the other side" face the same kind of treatment. Though frustrating at times, I respect that it keeps things clean and helps cut out a lot of nonsense, of which…

Honestly, in the last few months I often find myself upvoting opinions I disagree with.

It's one thing to downvote something that's factually incorrect, mean-spirited, ect. But downvoting a post that expresses a well-formed, but subjective opinion? I used to just ignore opinions that I disagreed with; and only downvote flames and things that were factually incorrect.

That, IMO, is how I interpret how the “Eternal September” plays out here: When people penalize opinions instead of facts and flames.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#479

Post by SomeOldThrow » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:23 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #448

dunkelheit wrote: post #147

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

> both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right" I definitely want to give credit to dang and sctb for making it that way. It could have gone differently. In particular, the no-politics argument is basically a fancy way of saying "nothing that challenges the status quo please". [1] I really appreciate them trying to keep the forum in a state where these discussion can at least happen. I would have left long ago if…

> I would have left long ago if flagging had continued to be used to kill topics.

This is still prevalent. The mods are simply resistant to this. I don't even think it's necessarily a bad thing, but HN is hardly exempt from being an echo chamber—it's just one I enjoy, and one that seems to pride itself on being vaguely more open minded (to serious discussion) than the average community.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#480

Post by radcon » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:24 PM UTC

SquareWheel wrote: post #470

romaaeterna wrote: post #164

Hacker News is a well-moderated community, but it's illustrative to see where Hacker News fails at moderation. While Hacker News is great at protecting the community from disruptive individuals, it tends to fall down when protecting unpopular individuals against the community turned mob. I support Hacker News moderating itself however it chooses. However, if we are looking at it as a moderation model for large, open,…

>Hacker News moderation is not appealable, not auditable, does not have bright line rules, and there are no due process rights. It simply does not respect individual rights. Yep. After eight years on the site I finally had a comment removed, and my response to dang to discuss it was completely ignored. Made me feel dumb for even trying.

"Those who do not move do not notice their chains."

In other words: People who think HN moderation is all fine and dandy only believe so because they've never had the audacity to post an unpopular fact or opinion.