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The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

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201–210 of 812 posts

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#201

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

This is actually my sole complaint with HN. I love the community and I understand where the moderators are coming from, but I feel that it's important to point out that the position of "keep politics out of $X" is the purest expression of privilege, and in general is an attitude that embraces the status quo, no matter how horrifying it might be for the unprivileged.

I'm not saying HN should allow ALL political discussion, but when technological issues inevitably and undeniably involve politics, either by influencing or being influenced, it seems a little cowardly that the general attitude of HN is "just don't discuss it" when the it in that case is core to the issue at hand, even if it happens to be political.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#202
> Gackle is drawn to healing workshops; Bell, to Indian philosophy. They seem, at times, to be applying old, humanist techniques to a culture obsessed with the future.

I wouldn't have guessed that. What's next though is even more interesting:

> “Something that’s deeply interesting, I think, to both of us,” Gackle said, “is the way in which one can arrive at a nonviolent reaction to somebody by having greater awareness of the—” He paused. “I’ll say violence in oneself. By which I mean the kind of agitation and activation that is causing people, including ourselves, to react in a kind of fight-or-flight way that leads to misunderstanding, conflict, and, ultimately, Internet flame wars. This seemingly trivial stuff, about people getting mad at other people on the Internet, is actually tied to this much deeper and more fascinating process of what goes on between people and what goes on in oneself.”

Essentially, the task of Dan and Scott is akin to the task of a (good) teacher. A communication teacher, perhaps?

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#203

>Strict moderation I don't consider the moderation on this site to be strict at all? It's tone police more than it is content police. HN continually lets comments and statements go completely unquestioned, and in some cases actively supports view points, that are objectively wrong in the most vanilla fashion all because it was said in the correct manner.

Are you suggesting that the moderators should make decisions about what is objectively wrong or right? Because that would be a lot of work for them and they would probably get it wrong.

When it comes to the content, we (the commenters) are the ones responsible for holding each other accountable.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#204
post #163

Discussion in todays world is highly over rated. There are people who build hospitals and there are people who stand around talking about who should build hospitals. The former group in any population in any country is very small. The latter group is very large and thanks to the current architecture of the internet have gotten so over amplified that they think they actually matter. Their resumes don't have any actual…

The idea that the 'doers' are the only ones that matter, and that drawing attention to issues is mere posturing for social standing is a bad-faith critique of many people who act with good intentions. Yes, there are always those seeking to attach their names to worthy causes for their own gains. However people have taken that legitimate critique and amplified it to the degree that "If you aren't fixing the problem, y…

It doesn't take money to join protests. It doesn't take money to volunteer, even if it's just maintaining a newsletter or occasionally seeking donations for your local org.

It's very easy to throw stones from afar when you've never been in the trenches. Those who don't do often make unreasonable demands because they have no connection to the reality of the situation of actually getting a thing done.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#205

How do you know their names, how do you know there are only 2? One of the problems for me about HN is the secretive nature of moderation.

We know their names because they told us: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7493856 (pg leaves dang in charge of moderation) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12073675 (dang introduces sctb)

Both those posts mention them already being involved in moderation before officially being declared moderators; you can do that too if you want! Just write email to hn@ycombinator.com if you see anything that you believe requires moderator intervention and they'll consider it.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#206

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

Given the kind of people who frequent HN (lots of skilled, wealthy and fairly powerful people) there is a large incentive to game the system. I assume that the mass upvotes/downvotes are exactly that.

I've had my share of suspicions of "downvote brigades" and the like but from the point of view of an ordinary user they are indistinguishable from uncoordinated users expressing their disapproval so I guess it is best to just assume good faith.

It is actually fascinating to know how much of this type of behaviour is visible to the moderators and how big of a problem it is (and of course they too can't see the full extent of it).

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#207

Hacker News is a well-moderated community, but it's illustrative to see where Hacker News fails at moderation. While Hacker News is great at protecting the community from disruptive individuals, it tends to fall down when protecting unpopular individuals against the community turned mob. I support Hacker News moderating itself however it chooses. However, if we are looking at it as a moderation model for large, open,…

" it tends to fall down when protecting unpopular individuals against the community turned mob."

I have experience with that given I got my early karma countering many popular people here with downvote mobs. I had no idea I was doing that, either. Never seen their names before. Just saw some mis-information that I'd correct. Dan hints in the article exactly what worked for me: just delivering the information in a logical way with sources that invited people, often engineers, to work out what was true for themselves. The folks with mobs used rhetoric and argument from authority. I used evidence. Eventually, most of the grey comments went dark again with some folks in the mob going grey. They mobbed less often, too. I was also told about a pattern where some hot-heads read threads earlier with some calmer folks (maybe older or more experienced) coming in later. Happened with most of mine, too.

So, you can't stop the fact that they'll show up. You can diminish their power by simply remaining civil and informative with evidence backing up your claims. Also, I try to use links that maintain the same qualities. If it's a political topic, it won't help to link to a site that's 100% biased in a specific direction. Biased or rhetorical sources likewise get dismissed. Fortunately, most of my arguments were technical. Many good sources for that.

I'll also add that it helps to remember the mobs on these sites represent cliques on these sites, not people in general. Most people I've met aren't much like folks on HN, esp the aggressive ones. It helps to remind myself that what's going on in these online forums might just be representative of their culture, attachments, traditions, etc. I don't internalize it. Still introspect about it since there are many times where I can learn something or improve myself. Doing this is a tough skill to develop. I think it's a necessity on the Internet given how much negativity is there, even waves of it at once. It will still tax you but a lot less than before.

"Hacker News moderation is not appealable, not auditable, does not have bright line rules, and there are no due process rights. It simply does not respect individual rights."

We had more of that on Lobsters. That was part of the founder's experiment with the site. It was initially really different. Mostly due to our vetting process we did for invites with strict controls on quality and private messages to people. Eventually, did a mass invite bringing in all kinds of people. Many of them aren't doing vetting so much as just telling people about a site they like. The result is the site is now more like Hacker News than it was.

There's differences for sure. I just think a lot of the problems are inherent to bringing in a lot of people from many different places and perspectives onto a tech site with open-ended discussions. They covered a lot of this in the original article, though. I won't repeat it. I just think more rules, even more accountability, won't change it.

If you want the latter, turn on showdead to find most of what they moderate away is garbage. There's some filter bubble on specific political topics that aren't popular here. They're tiny percent of the comments, though. Based on volume, I'd say moderation here is pretty light-handed in general. I mean, if you look at New repeatedly over a day, you'd question how the heck some control-freak moderators could even keep up with it at all. I stopped looking at New more than once a day since I didn't have the time for it.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#208

I guess it is a perfect opportunity to thank dang and sctb for their unobtrusive and friendly moderation efforts. The article itself was a bit disappointing because it focused on political issues. In my opinion the strength of HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right", as evidenced by the fact that a comment on a controversial topic can easily float near zero points while rakin…

I've never met Scott but I worked with Dan briefly in the early 2000's and he is a disconcerting combination of brilliance and quiet modesty. It doesn't seem possible that someone as smart and broadly knowledgeable should be so balanced and still. 15 years later he's still one of my most persistent professional memories and I'm glad he's found a cause perfectly suited for his skill set and temperament.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the kind of people who frequent HN (lots of skilled, wealthy and fairly powerful people) there is a large incentive to game the system. I assume that the mass upvotes/downvotes are exactly that.

I'm curious why you think "lots" of skilled, wealthy and powerful people frequent HN. I think its lots of people who think they are skilled and wish they were wealthy and/or powerful.

The heavy startup focus of hackernews (like, it's an incubator's news agitator) + lots of successful tech-types, like FAANG employees with 200K+ salaries.

Lots of other commentators I've seen on here are experience pilots, engineers, etc. Maybe not Bill Gates money but certainly on the higher end of the bell-curve when it comes to education and pay.

I don't disagree that there is a lot of aspirational talk on here too -- they wanna get rich -- but again, it's the news site that's part of a startup incubator. What did you expect?

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that the 'doers' are the only ones that matter, and that drawing attention to issues is mere posturing for social standing is a bad-faith critique of many people who act with good intentions. Yes, there are always those seeking to attach their names to worthy causes for their own gains. However people have taken that legitimate critique and amplified it to the degree that "If you aren't fixing the problem, y…

It doesn't take money to join protests. It doesn't take money to volunteer, even if it's just maintaining a newsletter or occasionally seeking donations for your local org. It's very easy to throw stones from afar when you've never been in the trenches. Those who don't do often make unreasonable demands because they have no connection to the reality of the situation of actually getting a thing done.

> It doesn't take money to join protests.

Travel expenses, taking time off work, food and drink, accommodations...

> It doesn't take money to volunteer, even if it's just maintaining a newsletter or occasionally seeking donations for your local org.

Many activists do those things, though. They're still dragged through the mud for "not doing enough" or "just talking."

> It's very easy to throw stones from afar when you've never been in the trenches.

I've never flown a helicopter, but when someone puts one in a tree I can still say "dude fucked it up." and be correct.

> Those who don't do often make unreasonable demands because they have no connection to the reality of the situation of actually getting a thing done.

"Reasonable," "civil," "practical," are all examples of words used by those empowered by a status quo to resist changes to it. "We're happy to discuss issues, but the discussion should be ciiiiviiil" which I mean, yeah, I generally prefer civil discussions, but when the topic at hand is decidedly uncivil, for example taking people's children and imprisoning them at the border, then I believe an uncivil response is warranted.

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