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The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

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Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#491
post #460
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see it though. The article seems pretty clear on what kind of discussion they think is unproductive. One can argue whether text is data, but it still has structure and meaning. When they say " ill-advised citation" or "logic, applied narrowly , is used to justify " that is what they are arguing. You own argument seem much more a moral one though. For one it doesn't even say what you said it says. For e…

I saw parent commenter as making an epistemological argument rather than a moral one. There are two fundamentally different sources of truth: ethical consensus and physical data. They are ultimately incompatible, in that only a single option can be your ultimate source of truth. Albeit other(s) can be valued to some degree. The issue they took, and I would take too, with that portion of the New Yorker article is that…

> The issue they took, and I would take too, with that portion of the New Yorker article is that it attacks the idea of physical data as a valid, supreme source of truth.

But I doesn't say that. Throughout the paragraph the emphasis is on the recklessness.

"hyperrational, dispassionate, contrarian, authoritative—often masks a deeper _recklessness_"

"_Ill-advised_ citations"

"_thought_ experiments"

"logic, applied _narrowly_, is used to _justify_"

"data, but the _origins_, _veracity_, and _malleability_ of those data [...]"

And that is also in line with the conclusion that "message-board intellectualism that might once have impressed V.C. observers like Graham has developed into an intellectual style all its own" and "can find themselves immersed in conversations that resemble the output of duelling Markov bots". The critique here is essentially that people don't have scientific literacy.

That people on hacker news think they can be rational, dispassionate and authoritative but that their recklessness with citations, logic and data (and their dismissal of other arguments) suggests they can't.

That is the argument.

All of this is questioning the substance of the arguments made, not the substance of such arguments made correctly. The entire point is that they aren't made correctly. You might even read the paragraph as acknowledging that it once worked, when it impressed observers.

> Consequently, the rhetorical paraphrasing of the passage into the comment dismissing nerds seems on point.

You can argue anything you want, but the argument here was made from a basis of facts. If the commentator wants to concede that their argument isn't based on the text itself, then they and you might have a point. But instead the rest of the argument isn't very believable. Which is the logic behind my argument in the first place.

> Objectively, the humanities has a poor track record of getting pissy and taking cheap shots at science as a viable supreme source of knowledge.

Again not relevant to the facts at hand. Especially since again they aren't making those statement. Otherwise we can bring anything into the discussion, from nationality to sat scores.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that downvoting is "reflexive" - certainly any time I've been downvoted it was, on reflection, fairly well justified.

> certainly any time I've been downvoted it was, on reflection, fairly well justified. Typically when I find my statements are downvoted it is because I had a quip that could reasonably be construed as negative, combative, etc. I tend to edit and remove those bits. When I find things to be "reflexively" (probably the wrong word) downvoted, it is in regards to simple questions. Simple example, there was an article reg…

Regardless of one's political opinions, it seems relatively uncontroversial that answering the question "how is A not X?" with the followup question "how is A, X?" has contributed very little to the conversation. "X", in this case "cruelty", might be a debatable quality, but it isn't as though we have no information about the situation. Google is chock-full of different arguments for and against Manning's various punishments. (No links from me, because that would make my opinions obvious.) If you were genuinely curious, that would have been a place to start.

The original question seems fine as a conversation starter, since for one thing it identifies a particular motivated action that most humans would agree is cruel: 'admittedly imprisoning someone for "coercive" reasons', but if the only responses it had inspired had been more meta-conversation like yours then it would have been suitable to flag the whole subthread. Fortunately there were lots of thoughtful responses.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right" I definitely want to give credit to dang and sctb for making it that way. It could have gone differently. In particular, the no-politics argument is basically a fancy way of saying "nothing that challenges the status quo please". [1] I really appreciate them trying to keep the forum in a state where these discussion can at least happen. I would have left long ago if…

> I would have left long ago if flagging had continued to be used to kill topics. Flagging is frequently used to kill topics still. Climate change articles are still flagged mercilessly, before any discussion starts and without regard for the high-quality of the articles. dang as a moderator has specifically said that articles about Russia hacking elections are penalized prior to any votes or comments starting (edit:…

This is true, still today I saw a BBC article stating that July was the hottest month recorded - https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49165476?intlin...

A minute later I go back to the home page and it was wiped out without a single discussion comment.

I don't see any reason why this type of articles should be taken down, they are scientific in nature and highly relevant.

Things like climate change denial should have no place in a site like Hacker news, it's unbelievable.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#494
post #423
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right" both and neither. Partisan discussions, or even any kind of bitching at all ... are outright discouraged. I often step out of line in this regard and don't always agree, but I'm also confident that folk on "the other side" face the same kind of treatment. Though frustrating at times, I respect that it keeps things clean and helps cut out a lot of nonsense, of which…

Indeed, that “hovering near zero” voting effect is just-as-often because the folks around here will downvote arguments they agree with , just because they don’t like seeing such things on HN. Which I find lovely, personally.

>the folks around here will downvote arguments they agree with, just because they don’t like seeing such things on HN.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious how you came to know that. Do you have some way of seeing who downvoted what?

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#495
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, that “hovering near zero” voting effect is just-as-often because the folks around here will downvote arguments they agree with , just because they don’t like seeing such things on HN. Which I find lovely, personally.

>the folks around here will downvote arguments they agree with, just because they don’t like seeing such things on HN. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious how you came to know that. Do you have some way of seeing who downvoted what?

Sometimes people comment on things they downvote.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#496
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like about the popularity vote-moderation that it tends to become a dictatorship of the majority: if you're outside of the accepted canon, you'll get thrown out. It's effective for creating an a fairly consistent echo chamber, but I don't believe it comes with few casualties. You won't see the casualties, because they are censored. I'm fine with using a system like that for starters but ultimately let benevol…

> I don't like about the popularity vote-moderation that it tends to become a dictatorship of the majority: if you're outside of the accepted canon, you'll get thrown out. It's effective for creating an a fairly consistent echo chamber, but I don't believe it comes with few casualties. You won't see the casualties, because they are censored. First of all, I'm someone who at times reads a lot of the discussions, and I…

> Censorship, in my eyes, can only be enacted by a government.

Why do you say that? I would think that it could be enacted by any group powerful enough to suppress speech in some way.

It was the Church that made the Index librorum prohibitorum. And that was in an era where it was especially week compared to the absolute governments of the time.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the guidelines are a great way of encouraging us all to be more thoughtful to others comments, and have noticed a difference in the way I might comment HN. The guidelines are somewhat of a joke, and are only followed (even by mods) when it is convenient to do so. For example, I've been repremanded in the past by our supreme leader dang for posting comments like "do you have a source for that?", because he a…

"do you have a source for that?", especially when phrased that way, is a statement made in bad faith, because it indicates that you believe that there's a chance the statement is unsourced (as opposed to "can you please cite this?").

I find it very difficult to believe that is a direct quotation from dang. Not only that, your parent called dang "supreme leader" (i.e. dictator, guilty of atrocities). This is clearly absurd and hyperbolic verbiage. Extremely "colorful" language is modern rhetoric of the worst kind.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#499
This reads like a mediocre college admissions essay full of breathless, overdramatic characterizations of minor, anodyne exchanges. I had to stop reading when a two word response from a user gave the author "a small rush of triumph." The tone and word choice is just nauseating. Examples abound: > "Commenters . . . . bickered about the word 'soul.'" > "Conversation spiralled, with users making arguments about Cartesian metaphysics and quoting Socrates."

The interesting aspects of this article could fill a tweet. "1/3 of HN users come from europe. It has mods. They have tatts. Check out @shit_hn_says"

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#500
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you clarify why you thought this? What evidence do you have that supports this? The big thread shows that the top comment agrees that 8chan should be left alone. [0] and the comment chain shows that there seems to be something like a significant minority against 8chan, but it doesn’t appear to be a prevailing majority. 0. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20610395

I'd approach it from a different point of view (Cloudflare can choose with whom it does business), but still got the same general idea. Interestingly enough, some of the highest-voted posts aren't always the "prevailing opinion" - some times. Lots of comments get ranked highly because others recognize they are cogent and support them. They may disagree, and so comment, but might still vote in favor if the argument is…

Hacker News doesn't simply arrange comments by the number of upvotes they receive, it also considers the karma of the commenters and the freshness of the comments. Also, when submissions aged and comments settled, the current top comment would always get a lot of upvotes due to its position, and lock them "in place" by the strong positive feedback.

So I doubt if reading the top comments is a very objective method for evaluating controversial discussion (it has a strong correlation, but maybe not the best). Often, I see very heated discussion and competing comments moving up and down until nobody is interested in spending more energy in the debate.

P.S: Invasive profiling and tracking can be a very effective (and possibly, the only) method to uncover insights on the dynamics of online forums like Hacker News. If we track users' every move, it could make great contribution to sociology and psychology researches, and may even help answering unsolved questions in order to building a better community for everyone. Unfortunately, it's too dangerous and unethical to use, I won't support it, but I'm always curious to know the results.

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