8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service • Hacker News Board

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#341

Post by huduyeue » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

DonHopkins wrote: post #261

nilkn wrote: post #4

I've generally been on the free speech side of this debate, as some of my previous comments on HN will show. With 8chan, I legitimately don't know what my opinion is. I've read it before, and I spent a few hours reading it this weekend, and it's beyond clear to me that it absolutely had the potential to radicalize shooters and terrorists. I'm not referring to the simple use of racial or ethnic slurs -- of course this…

I've lost good friends to 4chan/8chan. They were obsessed. At first it was cat pictures and memes, but it went way downhill from there. I've watched those sites cause the transition from normal, interesting, reasonable, open minded, intelligent, happy human beings, to horrible inexcusable pieces of shit who I never want to have anything to do with ever again. It's not just that they inspire a few shooters and mass mu…

So you're a bigot who cannot tolerate alternative opinions.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#342

Post by SolaceQuantum » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #30

IMHO this reflects poorly on CloudFlare. The supreme court has ruled time and time again that the right to free speech implies the right to be heard. While CloudFlare obviously isn't legally required to serve 8chan, the only service they are really providing is making it so that 8chan can't be DDOS'd. And DDOS'ing is very clearly a tactic that violates the first amendment. So really by no longer serving 8chan, the on…

"where people showed up to try to shout over the white nationalists and it just ended up with a bunch of people getting run over by a car."

Sorry, if I may clarify. It ended up with a bunch of people protesting white nationalism being run over by a white nationalist, who has been sentenced for killing a woman with his car.

In the Charlottesville case, the people inciting violence and the people performing violence are both white nationalists.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#343

Post by jaf656s » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

DuskStar wrote: post #282

hacknat wrote: post #251

What does free speech have to do with this? Cloudflare and other companies have 1st amendment rights as well. One of them is that they can serve customers as they like, as long as they are not violating the rights of a protected class. Political ideology or party affiliation is not a protected class, nor should it be. Twitter could ban every Republican on its platform tomorrow and it if the government tried to stop t…

> One of them is that they can serve customers as they like, as long as they are not violating the rights of a protected class. Political ideology or party affiliation is not a protected class, nor should it be. Twitter could ban every Republican on its platform tomorrow and it if the government tried to stop them the Supreme Court would likely side with Twitter. Where's the line between "political ideology" and "rel…

"kill all the jews because islam says jews are evil"

is not protected speech by any stretch of the imagination

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#344

Post by Rapzid » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

A major problem IMHO is the conflation of "free speech" the government restriction with its roots in ancient Greece and early democracy with whatever else anyone wants it to mean; typically that people should be allowed to espouse whatever ideas they want without challenge because "free speech".

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

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Post by Smithalicious » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

arwineap wrote: post #329

Smithalicious wrote: post #215

This once again goes to show that you can do nothing illegal and still be virtually locked out of the internet. The viewpoint that "it's okay to kick 8chan off the internet" is not consistent with the viewpoint that "the internet should be neutral infrastructure". Take from that what you will. People are doing the "yada yada not entitled to a platform" thing, but the distinction between free speech and having a platf…

> People are doing the "yada yada not entitled to a platform" thing cloudfront is not really a platform. It's more like a CDN, or WAF. I think your point is worth discussing, just seems to link less to the context of 8chan. > We need to allow people on the edges of the spectrum to say what they want even if it is without merit. Extreme speech is what prevents normal speech from being censored. I wonder if the anonymo…

I used the word "platform" because that's what others are saying. What I really mean to say is "infrastructure".

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#346

Post by ergocoder » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

iooi wrote: post #250

ergocoder wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a speech absolutist. I believe certain kind of speeches should be banned. What irked me is that CloudFlare was the one who makes the decision to do censorship. It's not really a due process. No one argue for the defendant's side. It would seem better coming from US court through a due process or something like two lawyers arguing for both sides and etc. I dislike the rationale of "CloudFlare is a private company.…

> I dislike the rationale of "CloudFlare is a private company. They can do whatever they want" ... like wut? Doesn't CloudFlare have the same free speech rights to express their own views towards hate speech (i.e., by not providing service to white supremacists)?

Yes, they do. But that's not the world we should strive for.

In your opinion, would it be better for a government to make this kind of judgement than a company?

Do you think the speech should be banned everywhere? Or should it be banned only on CloudFlare? Or you don't have your judgement on this specific speech?

That's why it's weird that people are cheering Cloudflare for making the right decision. Then, put forward an argument that "well, the speech can be on another platform".

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#347

Post by api » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

This isn't censorship though. It's private companies refusing to host something. Nobody has been arrested for speech and there are no laws prohibiting speech that isn't overtly and specifically threatening or otherwise violates the "fire in a crowded theater" test.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#348

Post by kaolti » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

I've been waiting for answers to these question:

What do we think happens to hate when when we ban it in discussions? Evaporates into thin air?

Also, is there ANY proof at all that banning hate speech is effective in stopping hateful actions in the short and long term?

Answering these questions should be the BASIS for any decisions we make right?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#349

Post by throw7 » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #257

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

Put differently: this is why we can't have nice things

The few always screw it up for the rest.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#350

Post by mieseratte » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #118

eridius wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's beyond clear to me that it absolutely had the potential to radicalize shooters and terrorists I mean, it literally radicalized white supremacist terrorists . There's no "had the potential" anymore, it's a fact. It also sounds like it held plenty of child porn, so I don't understand why it took until now for anyone to do anything about the site.

CP gets knocked off the board fast. 4chan and 8chan know the line, though it is in a weird place (it probably should be on the other side of "fomenting white supremacy")

> 4chan and 8chan know the line, though it is in a weird place

"Things we legally cannot host" is exactly where one would expect them to draw the line. Whether or not you agree with that position is another matter.