8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service • Hacker News Board

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#311

Post by slg » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

>The concept of freedom of speech falls apart if universally reprehensible speech is allowed to be publicaly espoused without being firmly challenged. Forums like 8chan and 4chan effectively incubate hate speech by providing a safe space for anonymized, like-minded individuals to congregate, espouse their basest thoughts and feelings and receive gratification for it -all without challenge. Moderate people are repulsed by such forums and the quantity of hate-speech they generate, which further compounds the negative feedback loop.

These boards do more than allow this hate to fester. They allow hate to grow as they become a recruiting ground that can radicalize people who never would have fallen into this mindset without these boards. 8chan might be compartmentalized in a way that allows it to become an echo chamber of hate, but it also is highly connect to boards about general topics like video games, TV, and movies. This normalizes the hate and it becomes just another thing to talk about.

I would bet a small minority of people who spew hateful things on 8chan sought the site out because of their own hate. Maybe they went there to talk about the new Call of Duty game. Before too long they are ingrained in the whole Gamergate mindset. Then they eventual start hanging out on /pol and before you know it they are a full fledged white nationalist. (A similar thing has been reported about Youtube's recommendation algorithm [1]) This wouldn't happen if the hateful sections of 8chan were sectioned off into their own site. No one accidentally stumbles upon The Daily Stormer and becomes a white nationalist. Just visiting that site genuinely requires a predilection towards hate and a sympathetic ear to white nationalism.

[1] - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/08/technology/yo...

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#312

Post by thinkalone » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #122

Didn’t know 8chan hosted their stuff at Voxility, it’s a small world. I’m saying this because Voxility is a Romanian company, I am Romanian, and my company used to also host our stuff at their premises until 3 or 4 years ago. I remember that on one of my visits there (there was always a hard-drive that needed to be handed in person or something like that) I’m 100% sure that I had bumped into what looked to be an FBI…

I think they only switched to Epik/Voxility for a few hours after being kicked off Cloudflare, but I'm not familiar with where they would have been hosted or what services they used 3-4 years ago.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#313

Post by rebuilder » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

Pigo wrote: post #242

anewguy9000 wrote: post #143

meanwhile, to us canadians, it's painfully obvious that the problem isn't websites, but guns. curbing free speech is not going to solve this problem for you.

That's an extremely narrow view of a nuanced issue. We have divisive cultural issues, a severe mental health problem, an opiate addiction problem, and problems with access to guns in some areas. We also have a huge country. We also have a huge country, taking away guns from people in Alaska will solve nothing. How's the knife banning in London going btw?

Also, if I understand correctly, very uneven economic progress in different areas.

Call me a reductionist, but I'm inclined to view social extremism primarily as a symptom of economic decline. When growth falters, the fires always seem to start burning.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#314

Post by tombert » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

Bud wrote: post #294

tombert wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I'm on the same boat as you on this one; I tend to have a pretty libertarian view on free speech, but lately the bizarre rise of hyper-radical idiots on places like 8chan (and even YouTube to a lesser extent) has really made me question these things. It's very easy to shout the mantra of "Free speech!!! OMG!!!" but we gain nothing by acting like there aren't natural consequences to it. By having a liberal fre…

"Free speech" protections DO NOT APPLY to a private company deciding whether to provide internet services to something like 8chan. Period. I continue to be surprised at the level to which people misunderstand this.

Well, wait, the question is whether or not internet service is considered a utility, and whether or not that utility is allowed to take a "side" as a result.

I think that 8chan is terrible and I would rather it not exist, but at the same time, I would be pretty against denying its owners water or something, since we've decided that utilities don't get to take sides.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#315

Post by lancesells » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

jolmg wrote: post #175

nilkn wrote: post #4

I've generally been on the free speech side of this debate, as some of my previous comments on HN will show. With 8chan, I legitimately don't know what my opinion is. I've read it before, and I spent a few hours reading it this weekend, and it's beyond clear to me that it absolutely had the potential to radicalize shooters and terrorists. I'm not referring to the simple use of racial or ethnic slurs -- of course this…

I'm not really that well informed of 8chan, but bringing it down, while practical, doesn't seem like the ideal solution. Isn't it just like covering your eyes and pretending the problem isn't there? The problem doesn't sound like it's 8chan, but rather these people and their ideologies. If 8chan was brought down, they'll just find another hub to congregate, but now we don't know where to reach them to talk. I thought…

I don't really know anything about 8chan but my limited experience watching videos on YouTube leads me to believe that there are millions of people being radicalized through technology. Young, angry, possibly under-educated people can easily fall down into a rabbit hole of hate like never before.

It's definitely an issue worldwide regardless of race, religion or gender and unfortunately no one has the answer. I don't know if 8chan going down really helps stop radicalization but I don't think it hurts. I also don't think it's an affront to free speech if a hosting provider stops doing business with them. If the US government started arresting posters on 8chan that's most definitely a concern but losing your Cloudflare service or hosting is not breaking any first amendment rights.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#316

Post by falcrist » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #235

ergocoder wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a speech absolutist. I believe certain kind of speeches should be banned. What irked me is that CloudFlare was the one who makes the decision to do censorship. It's not really a due process. No one argue for the defendant's side. It would seem better coming from US court through a due process or something like two lawyers arguing for both sides and etc. I dislike the rationale of "CloudFlare is a private company.…

Wait, you'd be more comfortable if the censorship came from the government?

The US government, at least, has explicit restrictions on how it can censor speech. They're required to abide by the 1st amendment, and even have requirements for due process and such.

By contrast, none of the corporations that host the sites you use daily have any such restrictions. If Google wants to delist your website, that's too bad for you. If AWS no longer wants to host it, you have no recourse. If Comcast decides to block you, there's nothing you can do.

Do you want the corporations that control everything you see on the internet to be more neutral? That will require oversite by the government (probably the FCC specifically).

If you want to be really cynical, you could say the government is controlled by corporate money... but then what does it matter?

IMO, blind cynicism isn't helping anyone, and the government is at least ostensibly supposed to do what's in the interest of the nation, and has some limits about what it can and cannot censor. I'd rather that, than an amoral corporation motivated only by money.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#317

Post by not_a_cop75 » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

bobfromhuddle wrote: post #202

matt-attack wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We wouldn't tolerate the existence of an Islamist site Why? Think about what you're saying. Imagine equivalents: 1. We wouldn't allow cell phones that let terrorists communicate 2. We wouldn't allow roads that allow anyone to carry whatever contra-ban they want down them. 3. We wouldn't allow trains that allow just anyone to carry books on whatever topic they want. 4. We can't allow for air that allows two willing…

The difference is that every single one of your counterexamples is something that society depends on. Nobody depends on 8chan. 8chan is not comparable to "air". This point is so incredibly banal that I'm surprised to find myself making it.

Tis true. No one NEEDS free speech. Why don't you just state the obvious opinion? The First amendment was a mistake.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#318

Post by mrguyorama » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

DrDimension wrote: post #266

boramalper wrote: post #182

What people (seemingly) fail to realise is that neither Cloudflare is the Internet nor Voxility is a public infrastructure. They are private enterprises which are free to act in however they want with regards to the service they provide as laid out in their contract. That is the danger of centralisation; when they remove their service, it feels as if your rights has been violated because (a) you have been so used to…

A private company must act as public infrastructure once it becomes a de facto monopoly.

A company selling compute resources to run web servers is not even close to in a monopoly position

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#319

Post by rtkwe » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #257

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

Put differently: this is why we can't have nice things

Pretty much. It's a problem anyone doing privacy conscious software is going to run into, if it works it will be used by people generally agreed to be morally detestable (eg: child abusers or human traffickers). In a similar vein I think people will need to in general get comfortable with the fact that some technology will be used by bad groups and it will make it harder for law enforcement to catch and stop people but the benefits for everyone else out weighs the downside.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#320

Post by romaaeterna » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

idlewords wrote: post #200

romaaeterna wrote: post #174

If we're going to have internet censorship, I don't want it to be a backroom thing. It needs to be transparent, auditable, appealable, with bright line rules and due process guarantees. It's unfortunate if we need to live with some level of censorship. But I don't accept it being carried out in back rooms by unaccountable companies operating hand-in-hand with illegal DDoS attacks. Put it out there in the open, and le…

Speaking as someone who runs a public site with the discretion to ban accounts, no thanks. Due process means people will game your policies. We've had arbitrary internet censorship by site operators since day 1 and it works pretty well.

Nobody is talking about your discussion forum.

Rather this is an issue for internet backbone companies like AWS or Cloudflare. If any of these groups wants to get into the censorship business, I want them to do it in a heavily regulated environment than guarantees accountability, transparency, bright line rules, right to appeal, and due process. Same for ISPs (many of us fought hard for net neutrality for this reason).

And I feel the same if the large platform monopoly companies like Google, Facebook, or Twitter, want to be in the censorship business.

Not regulating their censorship practices is incompatible with us keeping democratic government for very much longer.