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Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

taxwatchuk.org

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Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#71

Post by shaftoe »

scarejunba wrote: post #65
shaftoe wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curse them for not wanting to pay extra money for no gain. How dare they act out of a rational self interest.

Rational self-interest isn’t an unalloyed good (or even necessarily a good of any sort) so I don’t understand why you’re saying what you’re saying. Yes, sometimes for some people “fuck them for acting out of rational self-interest”. Rational self-interest for Intuit is lobbying to keep the tax code complex, but fuck them for it.

It's reasonable to assume all entities act out of rational self-interest.

To be angry with someone when they simply defend their own interests is to either hate the person/entity or to be angry with nature itself. That was my only point.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#72

Post by FDSGSG »

ravitation wrote: post #70
FDSGSG wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, taxation at this level is extremely complex. $345 million could just be because of unclear phrasing.

It doesn't matter. Like I said, either way, it is indicative of doing something wrong.

Not really, it's simply indicative of a disagreement. wrong tends to suggest tax fraud.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#73

Post by Scoundreller »

FDSGSG wrote: post #53
Scoundreller wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't sound "perfectly legal" when tax authorities are running after you.

Dunno, in my case the court agreed that my actions were "perfectly legal".

Care to share the details?

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#74

Post by FDSGSG »

Scoundreller wrote: post #73
FDSGSG wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno, in my case the court agreed that my actions were "perfectly legal".

Care to share the details?

Nothing exciting, the government felt that imaginary internet money should not be treated like other similar assets. Luckily the courts disagreed in the end.

With tax laws being so complicated these disputes are everyday stuff for anyone engaged in any "unusual" activities.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#75

Post by jnwatson »

throwaway07Ju19 wrote: post #49
thekyle wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing immoral about legally minimizing your tax liability. This is like saying that it's immoral for me to contribute to my Roth IRA.

The tax law is written to incentivize desired behavior. We all benefit when you save for retirement so that you aren't a burden to society later. But loopholes are different. If you discovered a loophole that made it so your landlord can not enforce rent collection, would you stop paying rent ? That's basically what these companies are doing.

One's person loophole is another person's well-lobbied IRS rule.

Many, many people would believe it is just fine if they found a loophole that set their personal taxes to 0%. Even more would be fine with a loophole that reduced their taxes by 50%. Nearly everyone would be fine with loophole that reduced it by 5%.

There's only one way to handle this large moral gray area: pass laws and IRS rules to close the loopholes that experts deem excessive.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#76

Post by FDSGSG »

Scoundreller wrote: post #47
FDSGSG wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is about money that was already outside the US. I'm not convinced that shuffling euro money around hurt the shareholders.

I can't admit I understand exactly what's going on in this case, but usually the story is that companies claim they have no US tax liability on revenue kept in a non-US subsidiary. And the same companies stuff all the non-US revenue into a low-tax subsidiary, even when it's effectively earned in high-tax ex-US jurisdictions to avoid their taxes too.

> I can't admit I understand exactly what's going on in this case

That's exactly the problem! These are extremely complex situations where there usually doesn't exist any clear answer. If there did, large corporations almost certainly would not take these steps.

If there were clear laws, then taking these steps could be criminal tax fraud. Blame the regulators.

There's nothing stopping nations from writing clearer tax laws.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#77

Post by blub »

jnwatson wrote: post #68
blub wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This business-friendly, or rather business-subservient attitude is puzzling to me. You do know that we have the right to complain about whatever we want in democracies, and this can be one of the paths that change is enacted through, I assume. So why exactly are you trying to censor those that complain, because it makes you feel uncomfortable? We will criticize tax evasion and even lawful-evil tax avoidance. You will…

Disagreement and censorship are two different things. The argument is "don't hate the player, hate the game". Complaining about the companies is wrongheaded is likely not going to get anywhere. Targeting the tax system that got here, however, has at least a remote chance of affecting change.

Except the parent post was not "disagreeing", they were basically shaming those that criticize Activision by calling them ridiculous.

Your and their argument is also incorrect. It's perfectly fine to dislike the player, because the player will be motivated to be less of a player and more of a good corporate citizen if they see that everyone dislikes them for their action.

The tax system is immensely complex, laws are slow to pass and change. It is faced with smart adversaries which try to use the tiniest loopholes to get an advantage, while regular Joe has to pay their taxes and they're condemned immediately when they try anything funny with their taxes (which they can't anyway, because they can't afford it).

This argument that the players are innocent and should not be criticized is either naive or malicious.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#78

Post by pixl97 »

jayd16 wrote: post #29
rolltiide wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which applies whether the stated tax rate is 1% or 75%, so a practically useless response unless the idea is that any written tax rate is moral if it comes from the government, which also means any legal means to mitigate the tax rate is also moral because it comes from the government

Morality exists outside of what the law states. You're suggesting that because you can imagine both a too strict and too lenient law, morality is an impossible concept?

I believe everyone having the same morality is an impossible concept.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#79

Post by ALittleLight »

FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

I don't agree. People with enough money and expertise follow complicated routines to minimize taxes. People without the money or expertise don't have the same advantage. I don't think arranging tax payments in such a way as to require accountants and lawyers to get the most efficient tax burden is a good system.

I'm not saying Blizzard employees or owners should be jailed for doing this. I'm saying we should realize this is a problem we should consider solving

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#80

Post by jnwatson »

jakear wrote: post #7
adonnjohn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just wish they would go back to making satisfying games.

Tax management as a strategy/puzzle game would honestly be a great time.

I knew a retired guy just like this. He had lots of investments and shares in subchapter S corps (and some influence in the distribution rate). His idea of fun was gaming out the different options he had for filing.
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