Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens • Hacker News Board

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#21

Post by oh_sigh » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:23 PM UTC

FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

Did you read the first few sentences of the article? It isn't clear that what they are doing is legal.

> The company is currently under investigation by tax authorities in the UK, Sweden and France over alleged transfer pricing irregularities and is is facing a potential bill of over $1.1bn in back taxes and penalties. > In the United States, Activision Blizzard has recently settled a transfer pricing dispute with tax authorities for $345m

Also, there is nothing wrong with pointing out what they are doing, even if it is by the books legal. You can still push for change in the system to make their gaming of it less possible, which requires people to be informed about what is happening first.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#22

Post by DanBC » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

Often with complex tax schemes we don't know if they're legal or not because they haven't been tested in courts.

Some governments focus on low-hanging fruit or on flagrant tax evasion. They don't want a long running court case costing millions with an uncertain outcome.

So we never get to find out whether this scheme is legal avoidance or illegal evasion.

But, even if it's legal avoidance: I pay my tax. Why shouldn't this huge company who seeks to benefit from tax-payer funded institutions also pay their tax?

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#23

Post by FDSGSG » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #21

FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

Did you read the first few sentences of the article? It isn't clear that what they are doing is legal. > The company is currently under investigation by tax authorities in the UK, Sweden and France over alleged transfer pricing irregularities and is is facing a potential bill of over $1.1bn in back taxes and penalties. > In the United States, Activision Blizzard has recently settled a transfer pricing dispute with ta…

I did, and until there's significant evidence to the contrary I will assume that what they're doing is legal. I've been audited too, and not because I did anything wrong.

> Also, there is nothing wrong with pointing out what they are doing

Of course not, but the real problem exists outside of Activision Blizzard. Pointing fingers at specific companies simply detracts from the real problem.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#24

Post by Scoundreller » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

> The company is currently under investigation by tax authorities in the UK, Sweden and France over alleged transfer pricing irregularities and is is facing a potential bill of over $1.1bn in back taxes and penalties.

> In the United States, Activision Blizzard has recently settled a transfer pricing dispute with tax authorities for $345m.

Maybe not so legal?

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#25

Post by deogeo » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

FDSGSG wrote: post #11

mattmanser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. That's how change happens. It's still perfectly legal to destroy the environment in many ways, it doesn't mean we can't complain about it. If we don't talk about it, nothing happens.

The problem isn't with the corporations, the problem (if it exists at all!) may be with the legislation. Complain about the law. E: CogitoCogito is absolutely right, there are companies spending lots of money around the world to push these regulations. I just seriously doubt that Activision Blizzard is one of these.

Who do you think lobbies for such laws?

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#26

Post by ravitation » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

EDIT - For HN Guidelines: Any obligation (other than legal) that Activision Blizzard has to paying taxes is not the point of the article. The point the article makes is...

> The case of Activision Blizzard is just another example demonstrating the need for governments to introduce more effective measures to deal with royalty-based tax avoidance schemes. In the UK this means changing legislation to make sure that royalty payments made to companies in jurisdictions where the UK has a tax treaty are included in the charge to income tax.

Also, it's clear in the header that it's not all "perfectly legal".

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#27

Post by CogitoCogito » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

FDSGSG wrote: post #11

mattmanser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. That's how change happens. It's still perfectly legal to destroy the environment in many ways, it doesn't mean we can't complain about it. If we don't talk about it, nothing happens.

The problem isn't with the corporations, the problem (if it exists at all!) may be with the legislation. Complain about the law. E: CogitoCogito is absolutely right, there are companies spending lots of money around the world to push these regulations. I just seriously doubt that Activision Blizzard is one of these.

> The problem isn't with the corporations, the problem (if it exists at all!) may be with the legislation.

> Complain about the law.

Do you not suppose that these large corporations with so much money at stake do not in fact use their resources to ensure that laws take their current form? Do believe they are somehow innocent actors in this drama?

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#28

Post by thekyle » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

devwastaken wrote: post #8

FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

Legal /=/ moral

There is nothing immoral about legally minimizing your tax liability. This is like saying that it's immoral for me to contribute to my Roth IRA.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#29

Post by jayd16 » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

rolltiide wrote: post #15

devwastaken wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal /=/ moral

which applies whether the stated tax rate is 1% or 75%, so a practically useless response unless the idea is that any written tax rate is moral if it comes from the government, which also means any legal means to mitigate the tax rate is also moral because it comes from the government

Morality exists outside of what the law states.

You're suggesting that because you can imagine both a too strict and too lenient law, morality is an impossible concept?

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#30

Post by FDSGSG » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

CogitoCogito wrote: post #27

FDSGSG wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't with the corporations, the problem (if it exists at all!) may be with the legislation. Complain about the law. E: CogitoCogito is absolutely right, there are companies spending lots of money around the world to push these regulations. I just seriously doubt that Activision Blizzard is one of these.

> The problem isn't with the corporations, the problem (if it exists at all!) may be with the legislation. > Complain about the law. Do you not suppose that these large corporations with so much money at stake do not in fact use their resources to ensure that laws take their current form? Do believe they are somehow innocent actors in this drama?

I'm absolutely sure Activision Blizzard (a relatively small company) had no significant impact on how these laws were written.