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Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

taxwatchuk.org

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Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#61

Post by FDSGSG »

ravitation wrote: post #54
FDSGSG wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to say before the courts decide. I've personally been through such disputes with tax authorities and prevailed.

Settling a tax dispute with $345 million owed is indicative of doing something wrong. It's different than you just being audited. At best it's indicative of bad accounting, but for a company like Activision Blizzard and at that amount that seems unlikely.

Not really, taxation at this level is extremely complex. $345 million could just be because of unclear phrasing.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#62

Post by FDSGSG »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #44
FDSGSG wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm absolutely sure Activision Blizzard (a relatively small company) had no significant impact on how these laws were written.

In fairness the quote I responded to was this: > The problem isn't with the corporations... Are you saying that _none_ of the corporations with large money at stake are taking the financially rational approach of influencing the current state of the laws to have these "loopholes" or are you just saying that Activision Blizzard hasn't done so. If you're saying the latter, maybe you should edit the post I responded to…

You're right. I'm sure there are many such companies, I just seriously doubt Activision Blizzard in particular is one of them.

E: I edited my prior comment.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#63

Post by scarejunba »

oh_sigh wrote: post #36
FDSGSG wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did, and until there's significant evidence to the contrary I will assume that what they're doing is legal. I've been audited too, and not because I did anything wrong. > Also, there is nothing wrong with pointing out what they are doing Of course not, but the real problem exists outside of Activision Blizzard. Pointing fingers at specific companies simply detracts from the real problem.

Did you pay $345M to make the auditors go away? And I never said what they were doing was illegal. I said it isn't clear that it is legal. Hence the investigations.

I did. One American state tried to get taxes from me for money I earned in another when I was young. I disputed it via a letter and they cut it to 5% of what it was and then told me any further appeal needed to happen in person. So I’d have to fly by a certain date, spend time in court, and clear it.

I paid. Fuck the tax man.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#64

Post by FDSGSG »

pdpi wrote: post #34
FDSGSG wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did, and until there's significant evidence to the contrary I will assume that what they're doing is legal. I've been audited too, and not because I did anything wrong. > Also, there is nothing wrong with pointing out what they are doing Of course not, but the real problem exists outside of Activision Blizzard. Pointing fingers at specific companies simply detracts from the real problem.

That $345M settlement isn't definitive, watertight proof, but I sure hope it counts as "significant evidence"!

Not really. We're discussing extremely complicated multi-jurisdiction legislation here.

A criminal conviction for tax fraud could in fact be "significant evidence", a mere disagreement by itself is not.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#65

Post by scarejunba »

shaftoe wrote: post #5
Operyl wrote: post #4

I, unfortunately, can't really blame the company for doing something that's legal. They're literally just doing what's best for the company's shareholders, and they'd be yelled at for doing anything otherwise. If we want this fixed, our lawmakers need to change the laws.

Curse them for not wanting to pay extra money for no gain. How dare they act out of a rational self interest.

Rational self-interest isn’t an unalloyed good (or even necessarily a good of any sort) so I don’t understand why you’re saying what you’re saying. Yes, sometimes for some people “fuck them for acting out of rational self-interest”. Rational self-interest for Intuit is lobbying to keep the tax code complex, but fuck them for it.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#66

Post by Scoundreller »

pdpi wrote: post #38
arkitaip wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^ How you know you've become middle-aged.

Lucas Pope has made very successful games out of being a passport control officer and an insurance agent, so I'm sure he can manage a tax optimisation game too.

I could see it now.

Starbucks develops a "new brew". They fly the best coffee connoisseurs to a Liberian-flagged, Korean-built ship sailing from Saipan to Nauru, and develop a new formula there with equal parts Arabic beans and Robusta beans. They sell this new product worldwide, with marketing from a PR team domiciled in Malta, but operating in the Netherlands.

Where was the value created?

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#67

Post by aloknnikhil »

andrewprock wrote: post #48
aloknnikhil wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. When the date rolls around to file your returns, I'm assuming you don't actually attempt to maximize your returns?

Few people do. Most people attempt to fill out their returns in a rather straightforward manner as laid out by the forms. The loopholes are not published in the tax forms.

That's my point. They're not opting to do so morally. They're not aware such loopholes exist. I'd be willing to bet most people you talk about wouldn't think twice to reduce their tax bill

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#68

Post by jnwatson »

blub wrote: post #56
FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

This business-friendly, or rather business-subservient attitude is puzzling to me. You do know that we have the right to complain about whatever we want in democracies, and this can be one of the paths that change is enacted through, I assume. So why exactly are you trying to censor those that complain, because it makes you feel uncomfortable? We will criticize tax evasion and even lawful-evil tax avoidance. You will…

Disagreement and censorship are two different things.

The argument is "don't hate the player, hate the game". Complaining about the companies is wrongheaded is likely not going to get anywhere.

Targeting the tax system that got here, however, has at least a remote chance of affecting change.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#69

Post by FDSGSG »

blub wrote: post #56
FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

This business-friendly, or rather business-subservient attitude is puzzling to me. You do know that we have the right to complain about whatever we want in democracies, and this can be one of the paths that change is enacted through, I assume. So why exactly are you trying to censor those that complain, because it makes you feel uncomfortable? We will criticize tax evasion and even lawful-evil tax avoidance. You will…

I operate a small business with 3 employees, I'm certainly incentivised to fend for us.

jnwatson worded my actual arguments better than I would.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#70

Post by ravitation »

FDSGSG wrote: post #61
ravitation wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Settling a tax dispute with $345 million owed is indicative of doing something wrong. It's different than you just being audited. At best it's indicative of bad accounting, but for a company like Activision Blizzard and at that amount that seems unlikely.

Not really, taxation at this level is extremely complex. $345 million could just be because of unclear phrasing.

It doesn't matter. Like I said, either way, it is indicative of doing something wrong.
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