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Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

taxwatchuk.org

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Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#41

Post by deogeo »

Operyl wrote: post #4

I, unfortunately, can't really blame the company for doing something that's legal. They're literally just doing what's best for the company's shareholders, and they'd be yelled at for doing anything otherwise. If we want this fixed, our lawmakers need to change the laws.

Yes the laws need to be changed, but that does not absolve the companies - it's called 'lawful evil'.

Did you also not blame cigarette companies for advertising and selling what they knew was poison, or oil companies for keeping their knowledge about climate change secret?

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#42

Post by jayd16 »

FDSGSG wrote: post #20
jayd16 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By phrasing it as excess taxes you've already begged the question. You could also phrase it as paying your share or pulling your weight.

Excess taxes, i.e. taxes not required by the law.

You've already linked the concept of excess to legality, definitionally. This is why you lack the ability to understand what a moral amount could be.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#43

Post by throwaway07Ju19 »

devwastaken wrote: post #8
FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

Legal /=/ moral

But making them equal is the goal. When they are unequal we create moral hazards. Moral hazard like this has to be least appealing part of having shareholders.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#44

Post by CogitoCogito »

FDSGSG wrote: post #30
CogitoCogito wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem isn't with the corporations, the problem (if it exists at all!) may be with the legislation. > Complain about the law. Do you not suppose that these large corporations with so much money at stake do not in fact use their resources to ensure that laws take their current form? Do believe they are somehow innocent actors in this drama?

I'm absolutely sure Activision Blizzard (a relatively small company) had no significant impact on how these laws were written.

In fairness the quote I responded to was this:

> The problem isn't with the corporations...

Are you saying that _none_ of the corporations with large money at stake are taking the financially rational approach of influencing the current state of the laws to have these "loopholes" or are you just saying that Activision Blizzard hasn't done so. If you're saying the latter, maybe you should edit the post I responded to to make that clear.

Edit: Small edits fixing terrible writing.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#45

Post by FDSGSG »

jayd16 wrote: post #42
FDSGSG wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excess taxes, i.e. taxes not required by the law.

You've already linked the concept of excess to legality, definitionally. This is why you lack the ability to understand what a moral amount could be.

That's fair. Do you know what a moral amount would be?

I don't know, but I also doubt that anyone else really knows.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#46

Post by 0xcde4c3db »

DanBC wrote: post #22
FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

Often with complex tax schemes we don't know if they're legal or not because they haven't been tested in courts. Some governments focus on low-hanging fruit or on flagrant tax evasion. They don't want a long running court case costing millions with an uncertain outcome. So we never get to find out whether this scheme is legal avoidance or illegal evasion. But, even if it's legal avoidance: I pay my tax. Why shouldn't…

Such schemes are sometimes described with the tongue-in-cheek term "tax avoision".

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#47

Post by Scoundreller »

FDSGSG wrote: post #33
Scoundreller wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a problem for shareholders too: When the money is "stuck" ex-US and can't be brought back to the US to pay its shareholders. If your money is in a shell that you cannot reach/touch, do you really have it? And if you can't, why is it on the balance sheet as if it were cash that you could reach?

This is about money that was already outside the US. I'm not convinced that shuffling euro money around hurt the shareholders.

I can't admit I understand exactly what's going on in this case, but usually the story is that companies claim they have no US tax liability on revenue kept in a non-US subsidiary.

And the same companies stuff all the non-US revenue into a low-tax subsidiary, even when it's effectively earned in high-tax ex-US jurisdictions to avoid their taxes too.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#48

Post by andrewprock »

aloknnikhil wrote: post #31
mattmanser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. That's how change happens. It's still perfectly legal to destroy the environment in many ways, it doesn't mean we can't complain about it. If we don't talk about it, nothing happens.

Hmm. When the date rolls around to file your returns, I'm assuming you don't actually attempt to maximize your returns?

Few people do.

Most people attempt to fill out their returns in a rather straightforward manner as laid out by the forms. The loopholes are not published in the tax forms.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#49

Post by throwaway07Ju19 »

thekyle wrote: post #28
devwastaken wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal /=/ moral

There is nothing immoral about legally minimizing your tax liability. This is like saying that it's immoral for me to contribute to my Roth IRA.

The tax law is written to incentivize desired behavior. We all benefit when you save for retirement so that you aren't a burden to society later.

But loopholes are different. If you discovered a loophole that made it so your landlord can not enforce rent collection, would you stop paying rent ? That's basically what these companies are doing.

Re: Activision Blizzard has moved billions of dollars of profit into tax havens

#50

Post by i_am_proteus »

FDSGSG wrote: post #6

It's downright ridiculous to complain about companies taking perfectly legal steps to reduce their tax burden. As the oft-quoted US judge Learned Hand said: > Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is…

Learned Hand never sat on the Supreme Court; he was a district and appellate judge for the Second Circuit.
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