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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#361

Post by api »

asdfman123 wrote: post #135
C4stor wrote: post #46

I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

I think a lot of the age-ism has more to do with cost than skill. Older developers ask for more pay, negotiate more, and are less willing to put in uncompensated overtime.

The way to get past this is to make sure you develop skills that are exotic and high-end and hard to find so you can't easily be replaced by a cheaper college grad.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#362

Post by blackflame7000 »

scarface74 wrote: post #345
blackflame7000 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it seem odd to exclude Microsoft from FAANG when it's the largest?

MAGA - Microsoft Apple Google Amazon: Edit: I just realized what else that stood for...

It's fine, we'll print the message on hats so people know were talking about something else haha.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#363

Post by Sammi »

pmiller2 wrote: post #108
gcatalfamo wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure of that, but the problem is not when on the job, but while interviewing.

Not sure what you mean.

Recruiters and interviewers focus too much on "technology of the day" that will always change and be out of date, and not enough on foundational knowledge that is always transferable to new tech.

So if you don't have they right modern tech stack on your resume then you have no chance of getting hired even if you are perfectly capable of doing the work.

This is where "resume driven development" comes from. Smart and rational developers will choose tech stacks that look good on their resume, not necessarily what is best for the work at hand, because they want to make sure that they stay hireable in the future. It no good to do the best work you can do today, if you cannot get hired in the future. This is partly how new tech stacks are always so hyped even if they are always just more or less rehashes of what already exists.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#364

Post by alasdair_ »

C4stor wrote: post #46

I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…

Seeing someone fire up wireshark, sniff some traffic and solve a complex production issue in five minutes by looking at the raw packets never gets old.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#365

Post by justanother »

jameshart wrote: post #35

There’s a trap in software dev careers. If you fall into it, you can really get stuck post 40. If you work at a small-ish dev organization - especially in-house dev in a non-tech company - you can rise pretty far and become pretty senior, and your indispensability can net you a decent income. But on the open job market those skills don’t transfer as well. The senior roles in small dev shops are filled by promoting fr…

Yet another +1 on this: I worked at the same tiny shop (a partnership-like handful of people) for about 15 years; We navigated a few technological transitions throughout those years and made more money than we probably should have, but when I (at age 40+) found myself at a larger shop, learning the latest tech stacks was definitely not the biggest challenge. Indeed, the challenge was slowing down a bit, submitting thoughtful PRs, coordinating with designers, writing documentation... you know, actual engineering process. I got my hands smacked mightily a few times at first, and I got PRs rejected, but I got the hang of it. And yes, my long-dormant telephone magically started ringing again as the technologies, people, and companies on my Linked profile started catching recruiters' eyes again like they did back in the day. It can happen to anyone, but I can see how it'd be particular common among people over 40. After all, I spent my entire 30s with the attitude of "this is working and making plenty of cash, why change it?"

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#366

Post by endorphone »

mr_overalls wrote: post #176
asdfman123 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

> every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable To be fair, this observation could be massively influenced by survivorship bias - more talented devs tend to be the ones still programming in older age.

At the same time though the industry has an age distribution that reflects the arc of the industry more than the selection of the workers.

I entered the field in the mid-90s and saw the industry hugely explode at the end of that decade. So as all of those nascent developers look around they noticed how few older developers there were and said "boy, this really is a young person's profession!". I remember all of the "before you turn 30, get a plan B" articles then, everyone fearfully looking into management or dubious project management paths.

And as that cadre aged, of course most new workers are younger, so proportionally they drop from a majority to a minority, but there are a massive number of very gainfully employed, successful older developers, and it certainly has been normalized far more than then.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#367

Post by irq11 »

C4stor wrote: post #330
irq11 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s practically a trope that every time this subject comes up, the top-rated comment is a skeptical response...from a junior developer. As someone who actually has worked as a programmer on the far side of 40, let me assure you that yes, older programmers have value. Your perceptions are not wrong. But that said, the article is right . The people who do the hiring and firing do not care about what you care about. As…

I litterally wrote that I don't how management values what I value. I also never wrote that the article is wrong, I wrote that I didn't find it convincing. I'm simply observing that after more than ten years developing and learning the craft, I still find myself not able to correctly know the old tools, and instead I merely have an idea of some that exist, and I'm sometimes able to google the correct one. As so, I'm…

I honestly wasn’t trying to be condescending to you. I even said, right at the very beginning of my comment, that you’re right about many of your observations. My word choice may have been poor in some places, but overall I defend the content.

You’re (self-admittedly) missing some of the life and business experience that comes with being an older programmer, and then expressing skepticism about direct advice communicated by older programmers. This is also so common as to be a meme:

Person A: “I experienced $something_rare at work”

Person B: “I have never experienced such things. I am skeptical of your claims.”

So sure, you can call it whatever you like - skepticsm, disagreement or debate - but when people tell you about their experiences, and then you reject those experiences because you don’t have “evidence”...well, eventually you’re just confirming your own biases.

Again, it’s not that you’re wrong - I actually agree with your perceptions of older devs. I just think you’re missing critical life experiences that connect your observations with the arguments being made in the article.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#368

Post by pmiller2 »

Sammi wrote: post #363
pmiller2 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you mean.

Recruiters and interviewers focus too much on "technology of the day" that will always change and be out of date, and not enough on foundational knowledge that is always transferable to new tech. So if you don't have they right modern tech stack on your resume then you have no chance of getting hired even if you are perfectly capable of doing the work. This is where "resume driven development" comes from. Smart and r…

That is not specific to big companies vs small companies, which is what I was asking about upthread.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#369

Post by tcbawo »

asdfman123 wrote: post #213
Stratoscope wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I've noticed is that there seem to be a lot more older developers and engineers at hardware-oriented companies. I currently work at Wing Aviation, the Alphabet drone delivery company. We were originally located in the Google X building, which is the old Mayfield Mall in Mountain View. I used to shop at that mall in the 1970s! X is full of hardware startups, and when I started there I noticed one thing right…

I mean, I feel like more programmers were working closer to the metal back in the day. In the 80s you needed to understand computer hardware much better and there was a bigger fraction of C++ developers. Now all those people have migrated to hardware (or have kept doing it) because that's where their skills are needed.

My experience has been that many younger engineers don't want to work closer to the metal as much. They want to work on the bleeding edge, sexier technologies.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#370

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

WorldMaker wrote: post #288
asdfman123 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously doubt the number of instant millionaires is significant enough to impact the total numbers. 25% of programmers did not become rich enough to retire, and if so, I'm doing everything wrong.

It was always a matter of luck. If there were ways to predict such a lottery ahead of time, I think the industry would look quite different today. As with flash floods of rivers, the coverage of such events was complex. It probably affected some companies a lot more than others. Anecdotally, it used to be an aphorism at Microsoft that if you hadn't made your first million by 30 (or was it 25?) you were doing somethin…

> I don't expect those flash floods to happen again

Google, Amazon, Facebook, Netflix... It already happened again multiple times after Microsoft.

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