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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#281
post #65

I don't know. I feel like there's a pretty clear power law governing the skill-ceiling below which additional experience adds actual value to dev work. ~80% of programming labor (testing, basic REST services, static web content, managing a small-to-medium-size SQL database, etc.) has a very low skill-ceiling. I've been in the industry for 7 years, I now run my own show doing all of these things. It's just simple grun…

> grinding away at a FANG I've started to propose we s/FANG/Big N/g "FANG" leaves off other obvious big companies, e.g. Uber, and it wouldn't scale to keep trying to add them to the acronym. Here N is used like when one talks about a list "N items long"

Does it seem odd to exclude Microsoft from FAANG when it's the largest?

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#282
post #46

I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

The guitar playing is a good analogy here. Say you've played classical for years and dabbled in rock and some jazz. Like any musician you've played around a little but probably focus on one style. You're best friend asks you to play flemanco for them at their wedding.

Sure, you won't be as good as someone that's played flemanco all their life. But if flemanco was invented 5 years ago you're sure going to pick it up fast and probably be better than someone who has only been playing it for the past few years.

Skills translate. Transfer learning is unsurprisingly a real thing. The funny thing is that a guitar player will pick up a brand new instrument and quickly gain and surpass someone who has only been playing that instrument for a few years. Even though each instrument is a different "language" per say, there are common patterns in the language tree of music. I don't think any programmer worth their salt would disagree that this is also true for programming.

No matter the language you use, there are common patterns. Someone who has been programing for years generally picks up a new language quickly (because of this). Certain languages will make you a better programmer in general too (low level languages help you understand what's going on behind the curtain).

So should a programmer with 30 years of experience in C and 1 year in rust be paid more than the programmer with 5 years of rust experience? Absolutely. Those 30 years they were learning to program, to debug, to solve problems. The skills translate. And I say this as someone under 30. I've seen the wizards solve problems in languages they've never used because they just understand programming.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#284
post #46

I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

The myth of developers not being able to keep up as they age seems to be mostly propagated by two types of people. 1) Managers who want to keep wages low and 2) Young developers who try to hard too prove themselves and don't want to listen to/or work with older developers. [0]

[0] Note, I'm not saying all young developers or all managers. Only a small subset of each.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>open offices Noise-cancelling headphones are mankind's greatest weapon in the hopeless war against braindead management practices.

Do you guys now understand why I've said it's a sad life? We are so "important" to mankind, yet the best we can do is to buy Noise-cancelling headphones.

Fair point, but to be honest nearly all modern work is borderline dystopic, regardless of how "important" it's deemed by society.

If you think being a programmer in BigOrg, Inc. sucks, then take a summer and work on a construction site or with a landscaping crew. Trust me, you'll yearn for that loud, open-plan office soon enough. Modern society would quickly implode without plumbers, yet actually being a plumber and crawling around under houses in rat shit is not very fun.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#286
post #14

I'm 50 and still programming. Programming is all I know how to do. If that was taken away from me, I would just rot to death. I don't want to be anything else, and I refuse to be forced to do something I don't want to do. I'll learn to farm and support myself that way. So, is it still preferable for the manager to not hire anyone and let the work sit undone rather than to be forced to work with a detestable "older" w…

> I'm 50 and still programming. Programming is all I know how to do. If that was taken away from me, I would just rot to death. Interesting statement. Someone recently told me the biggest problem with US Presidential Candidate Yang's Universal Basic Income plan is that people who have had a successful career in one field their whole life often do not want to learn a new career even if you help them financially while…

>people who have had a successful career in one field their whole life

It's not only being successful, but also being happy with the characteristics of software dev work.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#287
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> grinding away at a FANG I've started to propose we s/FANG/Big N/g "FANG" leaves off other obvious big companies, e.g. Uber, and it wouldn't scale to keep trying to add them to the acronym. Here N is used like when one talks about a list "N items long"

Does it seem odd to exclude Microsoft from FAANG when it's the largest?

Exactly

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument applies in the other direction as well: it's a very relatively young industry full of big industry-wide disruptions at least once a decade since it has been its own industry. Companies with young median and mean ages may have been more likely to survive (or evolve out of) some of those big early disruptions, but that may not be a long term equilibrium for the industry. Keep in mind, too, how much the 80…

I seriously doubt the number of instant millionaires is significant enough to impact the total numbers. 25% of programmers did not become rich enough to retire, and if so, I'm doing everything wrong.

It was always a matter of luck. If there were ways to predict such a lottery ahead of time, I think the industry would look quite different today.

As with flash floods of rivers, the coverage of such events was complex. It probably affected some companies a lot more than others.

Anecdotally, it used to be an aphorism at Microsoft that if you hadn't made your first million by 30 (or was it 25?) you were doing something wrong. Certainly the demographics at Microsoft showed several clear waves of early retirements from stock booms and bonuses, and for a ~forty year old company the median age is still staggeringly young today, even accounting for industry ageism.

If it wasn't clear, I don't expect those flash floods to happen again, they definitely seem to have been flukes of luck. But I think it shouldn't be ignored that it had an impact on the industry demographics.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#289
post #46

I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

Also, startups discriminate on age because they need people that can work until 2 AM and drink their Kool Aide.

There may well be a correlation there, but which is the cause and which is the effect is less clear.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#290
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have suffered under far too many "this is how I would have written it" reviews. It can be really demoralizing to write perfectly good, working, readable, performant, well-tested code only to have it rejected and have to rewrite it because the reviewer wishes you had used a different C++ feature. I tried something like your "I feel comfortable maintaining this" approach recently when I was the reviewer. We have an i…

You'll never do that update right? The more you wait, the more that developer will get annoyed when you interrupt them with it. :) In this case actually I would have taken the half an hour and sat with them to explain what I think should be done differently and why, prioritized by importance. Reviews done through tools work if there aren't many comments and if the basic design is ok. I've seen reviews where someone's…

> You'll never do that update right?

I resemble that remark! Yes, procrastinator here. ;-)

The thing is, his code is plenty good for now. Even if I never make that update, the code works and people are getting useful results from it. There's nothing overly complicated about it either; I or anyone else could pick it up and easily make any simplifications and improvements whenever needed.

And this developer is working on far more important things for the company, mostly in C++. I made the call that it would be better for our business to let him get back to that, since any improvements to the JavaScript code style on this internal tool simply weren't that urgent.

But I do appreciate the reminder and I will get to that update soon!

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