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Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

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Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#41

Post by SamReidHughes »

d2mw wrote: post #22
Alyan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that even a good idea at all? First most of these laws are a result of the culture here and if a vote were to happen are likely to remain or at least be controversial. Even the silly driving ban which have no religious basis is/was controversial even amongst women. Enforcing non popular laws from a foreign entity is a good recipe for disaster and may increase resistance to these laws and start wars or other ba…

The western world has sad tendency to believe its ideals are the only ideals, so you're unlikely to attract much productive comment. Fanaticism is found everywhere, it's just common for some cultures to give it another name when convenient

There's nothing different about your so-called western attitude and Saudis' attitudes towards ideals -- they too think morality isn't a democracy.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#42

Post by Vrondi »

mywittyname wrote: post #38
lotsofpulp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The military base is there to protect the regime. It’s easier to deal with a small monarchy with no transparency than a democracy. And they make for a good enemy of other local countries keeping just enough zest in the region for the weapons to keep flowing and the figureheads to keep toppling, but still allowing for a steady supply of oil. History of Modern Middle East by William Cleveland is a good resource: https:…

When people have democracies, they start asking for crazy things that are in their self-interest, such as mineral rights and ownership over their farmland.

You crazy person. Many many landowners in the USA do not own the mineral rights to their land.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#43

Post by phonypc »

d2mw wrote: post #22
Alyan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that even a good idea at all? First most of these laws are a result of the culture here and if a vote were to happen are likely to remain or at least be controversial. Even the silly driving ban which have no religious basis is/was controversial even amongst women. Enforcing non popular laws from a foreign entity is a good recipe for disaster and may increase resistance to these laws and start wars or other ba…

The western world has sad tendency to believe its ideals are the only ideals, so you're unlikely to attract much productive comment. Fanaticism is found everywhere, it's just common for some cultures to give it another name when convenient

Every society has that tendency. "The West" is just the only one in the position of being able to export their ideals.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#44

Post by TheCoelacanth »

lioeters wrote: post #40
magduf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but women need to consider the desires of men who want to keep them oppressed. /s Replace the word "women" with "black people abducted from Africa" and change the time period to the 15-1800s in the US/Europe. "I'm all for the liberation of enslaved black people, but it needs to be done slowly, in a sensitive manner..." It's amazing how, when you get a religion involved that says oppression is good and right, th…

I get what you mean, especially when compared with historical examples of fighting for civil rights. The anger from the oppressed, those demanding their rights, is justified. And it does sound absurd to ask anyone to be sensitive to their oppressors' feelings and reaction. I guess by "sensitive", I meant changing the system together, rather than against each other. But in retrospect, that may be a naive and unrealist…

Yes, if someone wants to riot because they're no longer allowed to oppress someone else then fuck them.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#45

Post by magduf »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #44
lioeters wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you mean, especially when compared with historical examples of fighting for civil rights. The anger from the oppressed, those demanding their rights, is justified. And it does sound absurd to ask anyone to be sensitive to their oppressors' feelings and reaction. I guess by "sensitive", I meant changing the system together, rather than against each other. But in retrospect, that may be a naive and unrealist…

Yes, if someone wants to riot because they're no longer allowed to oppress someone else then fuck them.

I agree, but the problem is when 1) those people have large enough numbers to be politically powerful, and even worse 2) when those people have convinced those people they've oppressed that they should be oppressed, so those victims join them in upholding the oppression. When #2 happens in sufficient numbers, I'm not really sure what the answer is, except to lead by example.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#46

Post by radford-neal »

magduf wrote: post #19
grumpydba wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner. These laws are ruthless and insensitive towards women though...

Yeah, but women need to consider the desires of men who want to keep them oppressed. /s Replace the word "women" with "black people abducted from Africa" and change the time period to the 15-1800s in the US/Europe. "I'm all for the liberation of enslaved black people, but it needs to be done slowly, in a sensitive manner..." It's amazing how, when you get a religion involved that says oppression is good and right, th…

"it needs to be done slowly, in a sensitive manner"

I'm not sure "sensitive" is the right word, but I would go for "done in a manner that doesn't lead to mass deaths".

About 600,000 people died in the US civil war. It would have been better if the slaves could have been freed with fewer deaths, even if it took a few years longer.

(Note: I've no idea whether there was any real possibility of that.)

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#47

Post by loceng »

Alyan wrote: post #20
Konnstann wrote: post #13

It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago.

Why is that even a good idea at all? First most of these laws are a result of the culture here and if a vote were to happen are likely to remain or at least be controversial. Even the silly driving ban which have no religious basis is/was controversial even amongst women. Enforcing non popular laws from a foreign entity is a good recipe for disaster and may increase resistance to these laws and start wars or other ba…

I agree culture has to shift on its own time - however there will always have to be the brave who are first to peacefully protest, or expose themselves of their beliefs or their nature that they may have had to hid out of fear.

I think most difficult society to counter is that of censorship controls, however even then the population may be quiet and submissive, at the right moment that silence may break in a flash and rebellion occur - and then the control of not knowing who you should fear comes out; the terrifying aspects of this is when you can bring in armed individuals to an area they have no connection to engage in violence - brainwashed to whatever degree, and afraid of repercussions if they don't act as told, that protests or behaviour is seeded by a 3-letter agency by some government painted as an enemy. It's why everyone, especially police and military - those who are at the front lines, need to understand and be taught this manipulation that is possible, especially in heavily controlled societies with system-wide censorship capability; the next Nazi Germany scenario in a modern, high-efficiency scenario, and deployed at scale, isn't necessarily that far off of a possibility. It's why it all needs to come individuals practicing non-violence, and these patterns and mechanics needing to be learned, understood by everyone - or enough of everyone.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#49

Post by grumpydba »

mikekchar wrote: post #14
grumpydba wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner. These laws are ruthless and insensitive towards women though...

Change that is successful and actually changes behaviour is preferable. It is surprisingly easy to look at cultural behaviour, find something that should be changed and pick a method of change that has no hope of success. "But they should just " does not work if they just won't . From one perspective things seem clear, but from the perspective of the people involved it may be far from clear. I've seen well meaning fo…

They need to be put to shame. By every body.
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