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Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

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Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#31

Post by whiddershins »

viraptor wrote: post #12
grumpydba wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner. These laws are ruthless and insensitive towards women though...

Sounds like one of those "do you want to talk about absolutes, or practical solutions" cases. Sometimes the only options you get are "terrible" or "slightly less terrible". Unless you're up for taking part in a violent revolution, that is.

Violent Revolution, by definition, is going to fall somewhere on the terrible scale.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#32

Post by jandrese »

d2mw wrote: post #22
Alyan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that even a good idea at all? First most of these laws are a result of the culture here and if a vote were to happen are likely to remain or at least be controversial. Even the silly driving ban which have no religious basis is/was controversial even amongst women. Enforcing non popular laws from a foreign entity is a good recipe for disaster and may increase resistance to these laws and start wars or other ba…

The western world has sad tendency to believe its ideals are the only ideals, so you're unlikely to attract much productive comment. Fanaticism is found everywhere, it's just common for some cultures to give it another name when convenient

Not treating human beings as property is one of those things that doesn't fall on a gray part of the moral spectrum. The history on this is clear and it is universal.

Talk about child beauty pageants is textbook whataboutism.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#33

Post by Retra »

d2mw wrote: post #22
Alyan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that even a good idea at all? First most of these laws are a result of the culture here and if a vote were to happen are likely to remain or at least be controversial. Even the silly driving ban which have no religious basis is/was controversial even amongst women. Enforcing non popular laws from a foreign entity is a good recipe for disaster and may increase resistance to these laws and start wars or other ba…

The western world has sad tendency to believe its ideals are the only ideals, so you're unlikely to attract much productive comment. Fanaticism is found everywhere, it's just common for some cultures to give it another name when convenient

It's not that simple to equate the two. Modern western ideals are modern western ideals. If living under an authoritarian monarchy were just another way of living, there wouldn't have been a history of revolt against it in the west, because western civilization is no stranger to this kind of society. Western societies have tried autocracy many times. How many times has Saudi Arabia tried liberal democracy?

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#34

Post by psychometry »

dnjdrbdhdbs wrote: post #24
Konnstann wrote: post #13

It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago.

What moral authority does the US have to intervene here? (Not saying that the US needs that to intervene, of course). The US has beauty pageants where 5 year old girls are put in hooker makeup and dance provocatively on stage, where companies market pants that say Juicy on the ass to 9 year old girls, where my 8 year old niece was complaining that her legs were fat... Can you actually assert with confidence that a Ma…

This is a brand-new troll account.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#35

Post by jki275 »

dnjdrbdhdbs wrote: post #24
Konnstann wrote: post #13

It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago.

What moral authority does the US have to intervene here? (Not saying that the US needs that to intervene, of course). The US has beauty pageants where 5 year old girls are put in hooker makeup and dance provocatively on stage, where companies market pants that say Juicy on the ass to 9 year old girls, where my 8 year old niece was complaining that her legs were fat... Can you actually assert with confidence that a Ma…

You're using tiny subcultures in the US against a country with systemized sexism based in their religion for the last five hundred years or more.

That makes no sense.

Sure, there are subcultures in the US (the ones you call out certainly) that are not good for anyone. The entire culture of SA is horrible for women. Women are literally chattel in that culture.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#36

Post by sdiq »

Alyan wrote: post #8
lioeters wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, that's really interesting to hear a first-person perspective about the cultural changes. > [Allowing] females to marry without consent..may risk a revolt.. Wow, I didn't realize how strongly people (I guess in this case mainly men) felt about this issue. I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner, as it relates to fundamental values of religion, gender r…

I think it is a conservative/religious issue mostly. Women are harmed from this so it may be easier for them to change their opinions. However many women hold the same view and are not happy with such changes. The marriage without consent could be possible because there is one sunni maddhap which allow this. (For example in Egypt I think) My views maybe inaccurate and in general I am pessimistic. However many are not…

As a Somali, i am mostly aligned with the Shafi' madh-hab and yes, a woman can be married without consent from a male guardian. This happens in the case where the male guardian refuses to grant permission without any reason. The kadhi thus takes the responsibility. But, Saudi's money and so called Salafism, most Somalis are now only marginally Shafi'.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#38

Post by mywittyname »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #26
Konnstann wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a military base and orchestrating regime changes are a little bit different.

The military base is there to protect the regime. It’s easier to deal with a small monarchy with no transparency than a democracy. And they make for a good enemy of other local countries keeping just enough zest in the region for the weapons to keep flowing and the figureheads to keep toppling, but still allowing for a steady supply of oil. History of Modern Middle East by William Cleveland is a good resource: https:…

When people have democracies, they start asking for crazy things that are in their self-interest, such as mineral rights and ownership over their farmland.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#39

Post by rolltiide »

Konnstann wrote: post #13

It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago.

The House of Saud was a group of nomads spreading Wahhabism wishing for an Islamic State who happened to be standing around when American prospectors struck oil. The Americans said “hey brb watch this oil for us thx” and they did and were elevated to the official stewards of the oil and we hooked them up with the nation state.

When non-state Wahhabism is interrupting other American pet projects, we drone them. If it is domestic inside of Saudi Arabia or official actions that dont interrupt American pet projects we ignore them. They cut people’s heads off all day within Saudi Arabia under a semblance of theological due process, it isnt of interest.

There is nothing to interfere with.

The US maintains its relationship for the petrodollar oil derivative and “the world” without US support has no say.

So yes, it is “oil” and is that simple. The US is there and enjoys an extremely fruitful symbiotic relationship for the past 100 years.

Although Saudi Arabia started with private American citizens, the Federal Government tried the same concept in every middle eastern country to get us to how it is today.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#40

Post by lioeters »

magduf wrote: post #19
grumpydba wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner. These laws are ruthless and insensitive towards women though...

Yeah, but women need to consider the desires of men who want to keep them oppressed. /s Replace the word "women" with "black people abducted from Africa" and change the time period to the 15-1800s in the US/Europe. "I'm all for the liberation of enslaved black people, but it needs to be done slowly, in a sensitive manner..." It's amazing how, when you get a religion involved that says oppression is good and right, th…

I get what you mean, especially when compared with historical examples of fighting for civil rights.

The anger from the oppressed, those demanding their rights, is justified. And it does sound absurd to ask anyone to be sensitive to their oppressors' feelings and reaction.

I guess by "sensitive", I meant changing the system together, rather than against each other. But in retrospect, that may be a naive and unrealistic expectation.

If Saudi Arabia continues to improve civil rights for women and there's a "gender riot", angry men on the streets calling for return to "traditional values".. Well, so be it, that might be the price of progress?

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