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Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

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Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#11

Post by lioeters »

Alyan wrote: post #8
lioeters wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, that's really interesting to hear a first-person perspective about the cultural changes. > [Allowing] females to marry without consent..may risk a revolt.. Wow, I didn't realize how strongly people (I guess in this case mainly men) felt about this issue. I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner, as it relates to fundamental values of religion, gender r…

I think it is a conservative/religious issue mostly. Women are harmed from this so it may be easier for them to change their opinions. However many women hold the same view and are not happy with such changes. The marriage without consent could be possible because there is one sunni maddhap which allow this. (For example in Egypt I think) My views maybe inaccurate and in general I am pessimistic. However many are not…

I see, it's a difficult road to progress.. In a way, I think there are parallels with other civil rights movements elsewhere in the world. People react to it so emotionally, and its connection with religion and politics makes the issue problematic to even talk about.

My hope is that there's a tide of history in the right direction, and although it's a struggle, progress will be achieved and humanity will be kinder to each other. I guess it's easier to be an optimist when I'm not personally involved, though..

For others who were wondering like me, I learned that "madhhab" is a religious school of thought, and different ones dominate in different parts of the world. Apparently, they're quite involved in Islamic legal institutions.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#12

Post by viraptor »

grumpydba wrote: post #6
lioeters wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, that's really interesting to hear a first-person perspective about the cultural changes. > [Allowing] females to marry without consent..may risk a revolt.. Wow, I didn't realize how strongly people (I guess in this case mainly men) felt about this issue. I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner, as it relates to fundamental values of religion, gender r…

> I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner. These laws are ruthless and insensitive towards women though...

Sounds like one of those "do you want to talk about absolutes, or practical solutions" cases. Sometimes the only options you get are "terrible" or "slightly less terrible". Unless you're up for taking part in a violent revolution, that is.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#13

Post by Konnstann »

It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#14

Post by mikekchar »

grumpydba wrote: post #6
lioeters wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, that's really interesting to hear a first-person perspective about the cultural changes. > [Allowing] females to marry without consent..may risk a revolt.. Wow, I didn't realize how strongly people (I guess in this case mainly men) felt about this issue. I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner, as it relates to fundamental values of religion, gender r…

> I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner. These laws are ruthless and insensitive towards women though...

Change that is successful and actually changes behaviour is preferable. It is surprisingly easy to look at cultural behaviour, find something that should be changed and pick a method of change that has no hope of success. "But they should just " does not work if they just won't . From one perspective things seem clear, but from the perspective of the people involved it may be far from clear.

I've seen well meaning foreign expats set back improvements in their work place by galvanising the opinion of all the locals against them -- even the people who were meant to be helped by the change. You need to tread exceptionally carefully, take your wins where you can take them and wait for another day when you can not win. It's incredibly frustrating when people ignore this truth and destroy huge amounts of work progressing forward.

Edit: missing "not"

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#15

Post by theandrewbailey »

Konnstann wrote: post #13

It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago.

The US military has been in Saudi Arabia for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Sultan_Air_Base

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhahran_Air_Base

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#16

Post by Kaiyou »

Konnstann wrote: post #13

It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago.

Whatever it is, I may want some for my own country, too.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#17

Post by Konnstann »

theandrewbailey wrote: post #15
Konnstann wrote: post #13

It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago.

The US military has been in Saudi Arabia for decades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Sultan_Air_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhahran_Air_Base

Having a military base and orchestrating regime changes are a little bit different.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#18

Post by 74ls00 »

Konnstann wrote: post #13

It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago.

Well, from which country were the 9/11 terrorists?

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#19

Post by magduf »

grumpydba wrote: post #6
lioeters wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, that's really interesting to hear a first-person perspective about the cultural changes. > [Allowing] females to marry without consent..may risk a revolt.. Wow, I didn't realize how strongly people (I guess in this case mainly men) felt about this issue. I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner, as it relates to fundamental values of religion, gender r…

> I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner. These laws are ruthless and insensitive towards women though...

Yeah, but women need to consider the desires of men who want to keep them oppressed. /s

Replace the word "women" with "black people abducted from Africa" and change the time period to the 15-1800s in the US/Europe. "I'm all for the liberation of enslaved black people, but it needs to be done slowly, in a sensitive manner..." It's amazing how, when you get a religion involved that says oppression is good and right, that you can justify stuff like slavery and oppression.

Re: Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

#20

Post by Alyan »

Konnstann wrote: post #13

It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago.

Why is that even a good idea at all? First most of these laws are a result of the culture here and if a vote were to happen are likely to remain or at least be controversial. Even the silly driving ban which have no religious basis is/was controversial even amongst women. Enforcing non popular laws from a foreign entity is a good recipe for disaster and may increase resistance to these laws and start wars or other bad stuff. Heck I think most Saudi citizens, even the liberal ones, would not want such actions.

In addition, I think they are also too many countries which doesn’t match US ideals, will US start WW3? For example there are many islamic countries with differing laws but I would guess most don’t match US ideals.

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