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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#291

Post by pmiller2 »

goobynight wrote: post #143
pmiller2 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you need 1 manager for every ~8-10 ICs, and one 2nd level manager for every ~8-10 first level managers, and so on, the jobs become fewer and further between the higher you go up. Management does not seem like the path of job security to me.

Right. It's a path to faster financial security though. Realistically, the amount of time it takes for them to find a new VP role is baked into the compensation.

It’s not that simple. Not everybody even gets to be a VP at a company that pays VP level compensation, because there are too few jobs.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#292

Post by mieseratte »

asdfman123 wrote: post #150
wrs wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen to all that. OA> Herein is the source of the problem. The more irrelevant experience a candidate has, the more lopsided the utility/value equation becomes… No, the source of the problem is the idea that 10 years of “C++ experience” is “irrelevant” to a project using Rails, as if development experience is somehow locked to the language you happened to do the development in. Being a valuable senior developer is ab…

I think a lot of problems some older developers have is that the culture has shifted. Maybe I'm off the mark, but I feel like older devs come from a world where programming was all about programming and it was less a formal career than it is now. To succeed in programming, you have to work well in a business. You can't be Linus Torvalds, walking around with a big ego, unless you're so important it's hard to get rid o…

> To succeed in programming, you have to work well in a business. You can't be Linus Torvalds, walking around with a big ego, unless you're so important it's hard to get rid of you.

I keep running into the inverse of that at companies. People who put on a smile and a nice demeanor, but then fail to do any actual work and subsequently lie and politic to cover that up, leaving the rest of the group to play cleanup and cover. I've always loved working with the Torvalds, you do your work and all is well.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#293

Post by dobleo »

blankcheque wrote: post #269
PedroBatista wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm aware and fully agree with your University of Phoenix pitch, please try to listen and understand that's only true given the right context ( both economic, social, time, etc. ) Most people sit at an office in front of a computer for at least 8 hours a day, some of them are developers. Most "problems" they "solve" are very distant from the "Changing the World and give meaning to your life, one PHP line at a t…

I'm not sure where you're working but where I work, being a developer is awesome. Fresh, healthy, high quality, free food catered for 3 meals a day? Check. Best healthcare possible provided at no cost? Check. Stocked kitchen with all kinds of snacks, high end coffee, kombucha etc with ability to make requests? Check. Freedom to come in when I want and leave when I want? Check. Work remotely when I want? Check. Any eq…

What you say is that for you all those benefits outweigh the actual fact of sitting in front of computer all day. It's hard to give them all up, that's true.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#294

Post by Silhouette »

beat wrote: post #261
awakeasleep wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you miss the point about 'shelf life' The shelf life is due to a business decision, where the knowledge the older person has is deemed insufficient to justify the compensation they've grown used to. Sure, you love working with them and it's better for engineering, but the business wants college grads they can pay less, even if they don't do the same quality work. Importantly, this doesn't have to be logical o…

It's not just quality, it's capability. As I'm fond of saying, I may cost twice as much as an entry level engineer, but I can do things that two entry level engineers can't do.

More significantly, you can probably do things that no amount of entry-level engineers could do. The question is usually whether your (prospective) employer benefits from any of those things, whether they realise it or not.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#295

Post by arthurjj »

jameshart wrote: post #35

There’s a trap in software dev careers. If you fall into it, you can really get stuck post 40. If you work at a small-ish dev organization - especially in-house dev in a non-tech company - you can rise pretty far and become pretty senior, and your indispensability can net you a decent income. But on the open job market those skills don’t transfer as well. The senior roles in small dev shops are filled by promoting fr…

+1 This is really solid advice and what I inadvertently did.

I'm in my 30s and spent a couple years at a no-name shop out of college. I was getting 0 recruiters calling me. Once I realized it was a dead end I switched over to working at a Unicorn for a few years and have since switched again to big tech. Now recruiters are interested in me for senior dev roles.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#296

Post by bobloblaw45 »

So I'm guessing if you're approaching 40 and want to become a developer you should seriously consider other options.

I've actually seen this talked about a lot. The arguments against it is usually anecdotal but the arguments for it is usually statistical. It's a tough thing for people to accept I think. Is there any statistics out there that actually disputes this claim? Not arguing for or against it just out of curiosity.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#297

Post by cheeky78 »

vfc1 wrote: post #272

I think the entrepreneurial route is the most realistic route in the long term. The idea is to use your experience and knowledge to build a software product that a niche market needs, and sell it. If you live outside the main city centers like Silicon Valley, New York, Los Angeles etc. its not hard to make a full-time income online. A key thing to understand is that, as an employee working for someone else, your reve…

I completely agree with this. I'm nearing 40 and have been consulting remotely for the past 5 years and have a side business, that will eventually be my full-time income.

The problem is that it's impossible to rely on any one company until you retire. Although I've been keeping my skills updated to the latest technology and trends, if I suddenly lose my job at 50, it's going to be really tough to find another one.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#298

Post by unoti »

asdfman123 wrote: post #135
C4stor wrote: post #46

I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

> In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself.

While this is true for you, there is a lot of selection bias and survivor bias involved in this.

For These older developers you need to also consider their comrades they were working with 20 years ago. For every older dev you work with today, there are 10 of their former buddies that decided long ago they didn’t need to advance beyond VB 6, or IVM mainframe assembler or RPG/3.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#299

Post by pmiller2 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #191
pmiller2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only works if you start at 25 when you graduate. Not a viable plan for someone approaching 40 who wants to make sure they can continue to support themselves into their 60's and beyond.

Why? Someone who starts at 40 is probably earning more than someone at 25. And someone at 40 has fewer years left to support themselves after their 15-20 years of saving are up.

The idea is that by 40, you have accumulated enough to exit the software field.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#300

Post by pmiller2 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #254
twblalock wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because 15 years of compound interest in the stock market more than covers the difference in income between a 25 year old and a 40 year old. The 25 year old has enough time to take risks with money, while the 40 year old needs to be thinking more about preservation of capital.

I don't think so. The 25-year-old needs the money starting in 20 years; so does the 40-year-old. The 25-year-old needs the money to last 45 years after retirement; the 40-year-old needs it to last 30 years. Those aren't significantly different time horizons. The 40-year-old can therefore invest with a very similar risk profile, and get very similar returns.

Which is true, assuming the 40 year old is still employable.
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