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How many kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables are there?

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Re: How many kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables are there?

#201

Post by TeMPOraL »

jwr wrote: post #200
TeMPOraL wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish USB-C mandated one cable. Just one. If you cut anything out of it, if you did anything out of spec, it's not a valid USB-C cable anymore. You either have all features, or no features. There's nothing benefiting customers from this cable mess. It only enables dishonest businesses, as customers can't tell cables apart until they plug them in and try to use them.

You'd still get the problem of devices either supporting various modes or features or not. The whole idea of "one connector that does everything" is flawed, unless you standardize what "everything" means and give users visual clues. Such as, oh, a different type of connector, like we used to have. I get precisely ZERO benefit from using a USB-C connector for my monitor, I only get a large amount of pain.

You're right.

The line I'm trying to stride here is, on the one hand, avoiding what USB-C ended up being, but on the other hand not returning back to the days of feature phones, where you had as many physically and electrically distinct charger and data ports as there were phone models. There must be a sane state somewhere in the middle.

Re: How many kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables are there?

#202

Post by rcthompson »

fyfy18 wrote: post #160
rcthompson wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait a minute, USB-C Thunderbolt 3 cables are also USB-C to USB-C cables, aren't they? Why aren't they included in this article? I guess there's 6 kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables, except for all the other kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables. How many are there really ?

TB3 is not part of the USB-C spec, they just happen to use the same connector. The cables are usually backwards compatible.

I know TB3 is not USB-C, but as long as a TB3 cable is USB-C compatible (can you really call it "backward" compatible if TB3 is not USB?), that cable is a USB-C cable. You can use it to connect 2 USB-C devices. That means there is more than 6 kinds of cables you can use to connect USB-C devices to each other, contrary to what the article says.

Re: How many kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables are there?

#203

Post by krick »

Mirioron wrote: post #162
krick wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, cables in question are mostly backwards-compatible, so as long as it would actually transition forward, the prospect of using a single ultimative cable with any device with identical ports seems actually nice. The problem is not that USB-C is a bad standard trying to combine too much in a single port, the problem is that there are multiple different cables absolutely identical from the outside at one time on th…

It only seems like a nice idea if you don't care about efficiency. If your tool can do all the things then it's going to be a very expensive tool (or will suck) compared to something that's specialized.

I might believe you that USB (or Thunderbolt) is imperfect both to transmit video to my display and to charge my phone, but the thing is, it does it well enough, and even if using some special charger will give me twice the speed, I honestly don't care, the life quality that simplicity of using 1 cable gives me far outweighs the hypothetical efficiency advantage of 10 specialized cables. The only case when I can consider a dedicated output on a consumer-grade hardware is when the signal is fundamentally analog. Otherwise, why should I even care, if both the bandwidth and latency are mostly fine and voltage is ok to power up my device?

Re: How many kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables are there?

#204

Post by taejo »

Symbiote wrote: post #182
Mirioron wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't EU legislation have some impact on this?

Legislation set the USB-A connector on the transformer, but not the other end of the cable. Before the legislation, most phone chargers had the wire fixed to the transformer, and were unique to each manufacturer. The law reduced the e-waste from obsolete chargers, but didn't care so much for the wire.

This doesn't match what German Wikipedia says:

Der Micro-USB-Standard bezeichnet eine Regelung auf Basis des USB-Standards, nach der ab 2011 die Steckverbinder für die Stromversorgung von Mobiltelefonen und anderen elektronischen Geräten in Europa vereinheitlicht wurden (Norm EN 62684:2011). [...] Das Kabel kann entweder fest oder durch einen Stecker mit dem Ladegerät verbunden sein. Bei einem steckbaren Kabel ist ein Standard-USB-Stecker (Typ A) zur Verbindung mit dem Ladegerät zu nutzen.

The Micro-USB standard is a regulation on the basis of the USB standard, according to which the plug for charging mobile phones and other electronic devices has been unified since 2011 (European Norm EN 62684:2011). [...] The cable can either be fixed to the charger or connected with a plug. In the latter case a USB-A plug is to be used.

Re: How many kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables are there?

#205

Post by beojan »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #201
jwr wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd still get the problem of devices either supporting various modes or features or not. The whole idea of "one connector that does everything" is flawed, unless you standardize what "everything" means and give users visual clues. Such as, oh, a different type of connector, like we used to have. I get precisely ZERO benefit from using a USB-C connector for my monitor, I only get a large amount of pain.

You're right. The line I'm trying to stride here is, on the one hand, avoiding what USB-C ended up being, but on the other hand not returning back to the days of feature phones, where you had as many physically and electrically distinct charger and data ports as there were phone models. There must be a sane state somewhere in the middle.

There is. USB 3.0 micro.

Re: How many kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables are there?

#206

Post by Symbiote »

taejo wrote: post #204
Symbiote wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legislation set the USB-A connector on the transformer, but not the other end of the cable. Before the legislation, most phone chargers had the wire fixed to the transformer, and were unique to each manufacturer. The law reduced the e-waste from obsolete chargers, but didn't care so much for the wire.

This doesn't match what German Wikipedia says: Der Micro-USB-Standard bezeichnet eine Regelung auf Basis des USB-Standards, nach der ab 2011 die Steckverbinder für die Stromversorgung von Mobiltelefonen und anderen elektronischen Geräten in Europa vereinheitlicht wurden (Norm EN 62684:2011). [...] Das Kabel kann entweder fest oder durch einen Stecker mit dem Ladegerät verbunden sein. Bei einem steckbaren Kabel ist ei…

"... An Adaptor can also be a detachable cable." and Apple's non-standard connector being compliant suggests this is either permitted, or a very wide loophole in the legislation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply#R...

Re: How many kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables are there?

#207

Post by throw0101a »

kllrnohj wrote: post #98
derefr wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is supposed to be easy; it's "you need to buy one of those really expensive USB-C Thunderbolt 3 cables, because those cables—the ones that do everything—are supposed to be the only type of USB-C cables." USB-C cables are supposed to be universal, i.e. have all the features, all the time; and thus, USB-C cables should (in 2019) be very expensive. Any USB-C cable that isn't very expensive (in 2019) isn't fol…

Note that Thunderbolt 3 is not part of the USB 3.2 standard. It's the basis for USB 4, but right now to be fully standards compliant with everything USB-C itself can fully do you do not need to be Thunderbolt 3 compatible, because thunderbolt 3 is not part of the spec at all. And even if you wanted to be Maximum Compatibility even with Thunderbolt 3 you may not have that option as TB3 tops out at a cable length of 2…

> Note that Thunderbolt 3 is not part of the USB 3.2 standard.

It may be better to say that Thunderbolt 3 is a 'superset' of USB: TB is its own protocol, which allows for the carrying of USB over it (as well as PCIe and DisplayPort).

Re: How many kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables are there?

#208

Post by Mirioron »

krick wrote: post #203
Mirioron wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only seems like a nice idea if you don't care about efficiency. If your tool can do all the things then it's going to be a very expensive tool (or will suck) compared to something that's specialized.

I might believe you that USB (or Thunderbolt) is imperfect both to transmit video to my display and to charge my phone, but the thing is, it does it well enough, and even if using some special charger will give me twice the speed, I honestly don't care, the life quality that simplicity of using 1 cable gives me far outweighs the hypothetical efficiency advantage of 10 specialized cables. The only case when I can cons…

But it's not one cable, unless you pay $30-$50 for that single cable. That cable will also be very limited in length. If you want something that is longer or cheaper then you're going to have to get multiple cables.

Re: How many kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables are there?

#209

Post by dTal »

derefr wrote: post #60
Causality1 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bloody goddamned nightmare. For example, a brief review of my devices: >Phone A. Type-C port limited to USB 2 data speeds but supports HDMI out via DisplayLink. >Phone B. Type-C port that supports USB 3.1 speeds but doesn't do video out. >Tablet A. Type-C port that supports USB 3 speeds but only charges through a MicroUSB port. >Tablet B. Type-C port that supports USB 3 speeds and charging, but only charges at…

I don't see your point. Devices are free to support or not support whatever capabilities they want. Having a specific port is no guarantee that the device will use this or that capability offered over that port; mostly it's a guarantee it'll use at least one capability offered by that port. The problem with USB-C is that many of the cables don't do everything. Nobody else is complaining that the devices don't do ever…

> Devices have never done everything possible under the communications standards they support.

Yes they do - that's the point of a communications standard. Any device with a USB 3.0 port will work with any USB peripheral ever, given suitable drivers. Your HDMI example makes no sense because it's backwards; of course I don't expect an HDMI2.0 monitor to be 4K, any more than I expect a flash drive to act as a keyboard - but I absolutely expect a port that supports flash drives to support keyboards, and I expect a computer with an HDMI2.0 port to support 4K monitors.

The departure with USB-C is that it isn't a communications standard. Unlike any previous USB port, having the port is not a guarantee that it will work with any peripheral with that plug. The situation with the cables merely reflects this fundamental usability flaw - even if all cables did everything, assessing compatibility would still be confusing.

Re: How many kinds of USB-C to USB-C cables are there?

#210

Post by dTal »

derefr wrote: post #80
wongarsu wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a device has an HDMI port I know I can use that to connect a display. I don't know details like the supported resolutions, but at least I know that's a supported use case. If I notice that a device has a USB-C port all I really learned is that it has a USB-C port. Who knows what it does.

But that's most port standards that have ever existed. What can a device do with a parallel port? A serial port? A SCSI port? A Firewire port? Who knows? It's up to the device. It can certainly send signals over that port, of some kind. But what kind of signals? Up to the device. The host can hopefully probe a device-class out of the client and stand up an appropriate driver to talk to it. A CD player has a 3.5mm aud…

I feel like there's some confusion over peripheral support, and host support. What can I do with a serial port? Everything. I can talk to every device that ever used a serial connection. Sure, I might need to write a driver, but that's really a separate issue. There's absolutely no problem with "your serial port does not support so you can't use this particular mouse/printer/random industrial equipment".

With your PCIe example, again - I don't expect every card to do everything. But I do expect every card to work on my computer's PCIe bus.

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