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Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

nytimes.com

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Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#41

Post by FrozenTuna »

csours wrote: post #24

If you ask the government to do something impossible, such as provide COMPLETE safety and security, they will try to do that. I think the news media bears some responsibility in this regard, as they always blame or call out whatever agency that fails to maintain safety and security, thus leading to severe measures to try to mitigate the previous failure.

Absolutely. Even in this thread there are arguments about there being dark areas where the cameras can't see so they won't be effective enough. Nothing was learned from no child left behind. 100% policies don't work.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#42

Post by bilbo0s »

panzagl wrote: post #40
Arubis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parents of problem kids do everything they can to push their children’s behavioral issues back on the teachers. Whew. That's a lot of labeling! And the solution is to build evidence to be used against these tiny criminals. Rather than just presume the kids are little shits on purpose and recording them to prove it, why not ask the kid what's going on at home? I'd bet real money that "lack of discipline" maps pretty…

Well, yeah, but calling a parent in and saying 'you need to stop partying until 3am with your boyfriend of the week so Timmy can get some sleep and not be an impulsive little monster with no respect for his female teacher' does not go as well as you'd think.

Doesn't mean it's not true.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#43

Post by dTal »

alistairSH wrote: post #22
opwieurposiu wrote: post #14

Currently trying to decide how to school my kids ages 3yr and 1yr. Public, private or homeschool. Parents who have been there, How did you choose?

Homeschool: Not a viable option for us. Both of us worked, with high salaries, but not high enough to easily forgo either income. Plus, neither of us felt qualified to teach some middle-school and many high-school level courses - so we worried about a transition from home-school into a school during adolescence. Private: We didn't see an upside in our region. Public schools are excellent. The local private schools do…

>Public schools have their problems. But most can be mitigated by "voting with your feet"

I would like to note that this is tantamount to voting with your wallet. Areas with more expensive housing will have better public schools.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#44

Post by bilbo0s »

asdf333 wrote: post #4
panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

thanks for the real life anecdote. just like in startups, its helpful to hear from the actual users instead of what some armchair critics feel is happening. however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell

>however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell...

Maybe you're relatively young, but I'd wager the old heads among us remember the days when these things were settled out at the bike racks. So that worry was already happening, and had been happening for a very long time.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#45

Post by UweSchmidt »

panzagl wrote: post #15
UweSchmidt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, there is a camera in the classroom itself, always on? The footage is saved somewhere and can be viewed by who knows who or what algorithm, judging by whatever standards the person or algorithmy applies at that time? ...justified by "solving" various conflicts in the classroom, conflicts that have root causes like large class sizes, social issues, stressful environments, overbearing parents, disrespected teacher…

The footage is only kept at the school. My wife's job is not to be the total arbiter of social justice for her students, it is to provide them with an education.

How can you ensure the footage is kept "at the school" (as if that was sufficiently limiting the exposure of the footage)? Who has physical access? Is the surveillance system cloud based? How is the school's security? Are her superiors legally allowed to watch the footage to evaluate performance? Could those overbearing aggressive parents eventually demand access to the footage, and worsen the whole problem?

Are the childrens' parents aware of the consequences of the cameras? That every tiny little move in the formative phase of their children's lifes is recorded for all eternity, and that data generally tends to leak, and all kinds of entities want access?

It is data. People were surprised when 1980s-era USENET forum posts where made accessible a few years ago. Back then it was unfathomable that this data would be searchable and accessible or even relevant, but it was. Same with our data now: it will be analyzed in ways we cannot even imagine.

I am stunned by how quickly surveillance spreads.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#46

Post by opwieurposiu »

steverb wrote: post #35
opwieurposiu wrote: post #14

Currently trying to decide how to school my kids ages 3yr and 1yr. Public, private or homeschool. Parents who have been there, How did you choose?

All three. We have 4 kids (3 of them now adults). We re-assessed every year and decided with the kids what their education environment would look like each year. One of them, our extremely musical daughter flipped between homeschool, private and public school several times until we found a university model school that worked well with her needs (lots of schedule flexibility to do extra-curricular music things). You d…

This makes a lot of sense. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#47

Post by thatfrenchguy »

tokai wrote: post #31
thatfrenchguy wrote: post #16

Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ? Adults definitely behave differently when they know they are monitored (I personally know I do), so I wonder what kind of mental health issues would hide in those children if they are monitored at all times... I also feel like using this to prevent bullying or suicides is the wrong option, as educating kids the…

>Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children? The literature list from this paper[0] might be a good place to start looking. [0] https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9781137308863_4

Thanks, exactly what I was looking for :-)

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#48

Post by everdrive »

panzagl wrote: post #39
ralusek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot alw…

No one actually watches the video, unless something happens. And this is an elementary classroom- resolution of petty squabbles means 28 kids don't get to learn while 2 others yell 'he did it first'. They can be beasts to each other at recess.

If it helps, this is a very realistic portrayal of how privacy is degraded over time. Invading privacy has all sorts of practical applications. You can fight crime more effectively, and measure trends, and generally be more effective at all sorts of capitalism and statecraft. But, problems, and risks just pile up over time. Just think of what we could do for just one small sacrifice!

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#49

Post by maxden »

ralusek wrote: post #19
panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot alw…

I agree, it is normalizing surveillance such that the kids grow up expecting there to be camera everywhere and accepting it.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#50

Post by tptacek »

Arubis wrote: post #26
rayiner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we had these as kids. The number one problem with education in the US is the lack of discipline in the class room. Teachers spend all their time babysitting problem children instead of helping everyone else learn. Parents of problem kids do everything they can to push their children’s behavioral issues back on the teachers. Cameras in the classroom could go a long way to helping schools build record evidence t…

> Parents of problem kids do everything they can to push their children’s behavioral issues back on the teachers. Whew. That's a lot of labeling! And the solution is to build evidence to be used against these tiny criminals. Rather than just presume the kids are little shits on purpose and recording them to prove it, why not ask the kid what's going on at home? I'd bet real money that "lack of discipline" maps pretty…

Because the teacher's job should be to teach, not to be a social worker.
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