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Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

nytimes.com

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Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#31

Post by tokai »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #16

Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ? Adults definitely behave differently when they know they are monitored (I personally know I do), so I wonder what kind of mental health issues would hide in those children if they are monitored at all times... I also feel like using this to prevent bullying or suicides is the wrong option, as educating kids the…

>Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children?

The literature list from this paper[0] might be a good place to start looking.

[0] https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9781137308863_4

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#32

Post by bilbo0s »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #16

Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ? Adults definitely behave differently when they know they are monitored (I personally know I do), so I wonder what kind of mental health issues would hide in those children if they are monitored at all times... I also feel like using this to prevent bullying or suicides is the wrong option, as educating kids the…

>Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ?...

I don't have any data or anything, but I think that brain development is not even complete until well after 12th grade in humans. In particular, I think the ability to self regulate is compromised.

So here's the thing, the people doing all this are child development experts, so they would know all about brain development. A lot more than myself. In a very real way, these guys have made it a policy to monitor children who they know very well will likely not change their behaviors due to being monitored. So you have to wonder if this is just more about attribution and the ability to justify punishments? Just administrators playing CYA?

"No ma'am. We know it was your son who assaulted that girl. Here's the video for your perusal."

"No son. We know you said so and so to that other student over there. Here's the video."

"No sir. That was definitely your daughter fighting over there. Here's the video."

Etc etc etc.

So in answer to your question, "No." Children will not change their behavior. Certainly not at the mean.

Welcome any corrections from any child dev experts on HN if I'm wrong about brain development in children.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#33

Post by klodolph »

Before we had children misclassified as threats by errant algorithms, we misclassified them with people. There were a bunch of zero-tolerance policies passed in the early 2000s, and they often provided no path to understand or appeal the decision to label a child as a threat.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#34

Post by DocTomoe »

panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

> my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them.

Police also loves more surveillance. The push against surveillance tries not to help the (maybe benevolent) oppressor, but the (potential) oppressed.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#35

Post by steverb »

opwieurposiu wrote: post #14

Currently trying to decide how to school my kids ages 3yr and 1yr. Public, private or homeschool. Parents who have been there, How did you choose?

All three. We have 4 kids (3 of them now adults).

We re-assessed every year and decided with the kids what their education environment would look like each year.

One of them, our extremely musical daughter flipped between homeschool, private and public school several times until we found a university model school that worked well with her needs (lots of schedule flexibility to do extra-curricular music things).

You don't have to choose one way and stick with it. Your children's needs will change in ways unique to each of your kids.

[Edit] Also, schools change year to year depending on staff and pupil turnover. There's no honor in torturing your kid with a school situation that is just not working for them, especially if you have other options.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#36

Post by thatfrenchguy »

bilbo0s wrote: post #32
thatfrenchguy wrote: post #16

Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ? Adults definitely behave differently when they know they are monitored (I personally know I do), so I wonder what kind of mental health issues would hide in those children if they are monitored at all times... I also feel like using this to prevent bullying or suicides is the wrong option, as educating kids the…

> Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ?... I don't have any data or anything, but I think that brain development is not even complete until well after 12th grade in humans. In particular, I think the ability to self regulate is compromised. So here's the thing, the people doing all this are child development experts, so they would know all about br…

« So here's the thing, the people doing all this are child development experts, so they would know all about brain development »

But are they ? Do we have any indication that this is the case ? Those tech companies could just be after what they see is money and not be based on any science (as it’s often the case).

From Gaggle’s website: « You are invading my child’s privacy! Well, aren’t you? Most educators and attorneys will tell you that when your child is using school-provided technology, there should be no expectation of privacy. In fact, your child’s school is legally required by federal law (Children's Internet Protection Act) to protect children from accessing obscene or harmful content over the Internet.".

This is the worst straw man argument I have seen in a long time. You can prevent my kid from seeing porn without reading everything she does.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#37

Post by bilbo0s »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #36
bilbo0s wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ?... I don't have any data or anything, but I think that brain development is not even complete until well after 12th grade in humans. In particular, I think the ability to self regulate is compromised. So here's the thing, the people doing all this are child development experts, so they would know all about br…

« So here's the thing, the people doing all this are child development experts, so they would know all about brain development » But are they ? Do we have any indication that this is the case ? Those tech companies could just be after what they see is money and not be based on any science (as it’s often the case). From Gaggle’s website: « You are invading my child’s privacy! Well, aren’t you? Most educators and attor…

>Those tech companies could just be after what they see is money and not be based on any science (as it’s often the case)...

Well, that's true.

I guess I just assumed people would be doing all this in step with some theory or principles of child development that indicated that this would be effective?

Maybe I'm giving way too much credit.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#38

Post by koolba »

rayiner wrote: post #8
panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

I wish we had these as kids. The number one problem with education in the US is the lack of discipline in the class room. Teachers spend all their time babysitting problem children instead of helping everyone else learn. Parents of problem kids do everything they can to push their children’s behavioral issues back on the teachers. Cameras in the classroom could go a long way to helping schools build record evidence t…

I don't think the cameras are a net win as the acclimation of the students to a total surveillance state has broader consequences.

What we really need is the ability for teachers to evict unruly students without having to build a multi-month evidence file. A classroom is a place to learn and there should be zero tolerance for repeat offenders. We're putting so much in the hands of teacher's as it is; giving them the option to judge behavior isn't a stretch.

To people who say that's too much power for the teachers (ex: "It's not fair! She had it in for my kid from day one!") I say phooey. Odds are your kid really is a disruptive jerk. And if a teacher truly is the problem the answer to that is to be able to fire teachers as well.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#39

Post by panzagl »

ralusek wrote: post #19
panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Nope. Not worth it. There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot alw…

No one actually watches the video, unless something happens.

And this is an elementary classroom- resolution of petty squabbles means 28 kids don't get to learn while 2 others yell 'he did it first'. They can be beasts to each other at recess.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#40

Post by panzagl »

Arubis wrote: post #26
rayiner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we had these as kids. The number one problem with education in the US is the lack of discipline in the class room. Teachers spend all their time babysitting problem children instead of helping everyone else learn. Parents of problem kids do everything they can to push their children’s behavioral issues back on the teachers. Cameras in the classroom could go a long way to helping schools build record evidence t…

> Parents of problem kids do everything they can to push their children’s behavioral issues back on the teachers. Whew. That's a lot of labeling! And the solution is to build evidence to be used against these tiny criminals. Rather than just presume the kids are little shits on purpose and recording them to prove it, why not ask the kid what's going on at home? I'd bet real money that "lack of discipline" maps pretty…

Well, yeah, but calling a parent in and saying 'you need to stop partying until 3am with your boyfriend of the week so Timmy can get some sleep and not be an impulsive little monster with no respect for his female teacher' does not go as well as you'd think.
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