Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State • Hacker News Board

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#11

Post by UweSchmidt » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Wait, there is a camera in the classroom itself, always on? The footage is saved somewhere and can be viewed by who knows who or what algorithm, judging by whatever standards the person or algorithmy applies at that time?

...justified by "solving" various conflicts in the classroom, conflicts that have root causes like large class sizes, social issues, stressful environments, overbearing parents, disrespected teachers or whatever - so we just build an panopticon?

Right now I can't even imagine watching surveillance video like that, seeing all kinds of reactions and emotions of people, of children interacting; what right do I have to systematically observe without them knowing?

Screw all of that. Spend any amound of money to have small class sizes, pay teachers better, make schools friendly and welcoming, have more counselors around or whatever.

But please throw out those cameras.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#12

Post by jbigelow76 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

cj wrote: post #10

The paywalls on all major news sites are driving me crazy. Not because they cost money (I am willing to pay), but because it's not practical to buy an online subscription to 10+ major news sites individually. Is there a service that lets you pay 1 monthly fee for a subscription to the top 10 major (paywalled) news sites?

The closest you'll get is Apple News but even that won't include the entirety of the NY Times or WaPo since those publications don't want to cede control of the customer relationship with their readers.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#13

Post by runwerks » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

cj wrote: post #10

The paywalls on all major news sites are driving me crazy. Not because they cost money (I am willing to pay), but because it's not practical to buy an online subscription to 10+ major news sites individually. Is there a service that lets you pay 1 monthly fee for a subscription to the top 10 major (paywalled) news sites?

apple news + seems to fit some of that.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#14

Post by opwieurposiu » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:56 PM UTC

Currently trying to decide how to school my kids ages 3yr and 1yr. Public, private or homeschool. Parents who have been there, How did you choose?

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#15

Post by panzagl » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:56 PM UTC

UweSchmidt wrote: post #11

panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Wait, there is a camera in the classroom itself, always on? The footage is saved somewhere and can be viewed by who knows who or what algorithm, judging by whatever standards the person or algorithmy applies at that time? ...justified by "solving" various conflicts in the classroom, conflicts that have root causes like large class sizes, social issues, stressful environments, overbearing parents, disrespected teacher…

The footage is only kept at the school.

My wife's job is not to be the total arbiter of social justice for her students, it is to provide them with an education.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#16

Post by thatfrenchguy » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

Is there any data on how being recorded at all times affects the behavioral development of those children ? Adults definitely behave differently when they know they are monitored (I personally know I do), so I wonder what kind of mental health issues would hide in those children if they are monitored at all times... I also feel like using this to prevent bullying or suicides is the wrong option, as educating kids themselves would probably be a more sensible idea (but hey you need teaching personnel that’s decently paid for that !).

It’s interesting that this surveillance is banned in France because teachers and pupils have « a right to privacy »: https://www.cnil.fr/fr/la-videosurveillance-videoprotection-...

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#17

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:59 PM UTC

UweSchmidt wrote: post #11

panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Wait, there is a camera in the classroom itself, always on? The footage is saved somewhere and can be viewed by who knows who or what algorithm, judging by whatever standards the person or algorithmy applies at that time? ...justified by "solving" various conflicts in the classroom, conflicts that have root causes like large class sizes, social issues, stressful environments, overbearing parents, disrespected teacher…

yes yes it would be all nice if we would completely revamp school system (and why stop there) into something marvelous, but back in reality where it won't probably happen in our lifetimes, some hacks may make unbearable life if public school teacher slightly more bearable.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#18

Post by leetcrew » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:59 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #6

asdf333 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for the real life anecdote. just like in startups, its helpful to hear from the actual users instead of what some armchair critics feel is happening. however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell

>however, i do worry about fights and bullying being taken to 'the dark corners of the school' such as the bathroom or some unused stairwell 1) They did that a lot back in the "old days" anyway, since it was away from other people 2) bullies usually have poor impulse control and don't think immediately about the consequences of their actions, so they frequently won't think about the cameras, so at least some of the t…

regarding 2) that may be true of many bullies, but I would expect at least some of them to learn how to get away with it. I could certainly imagine that some bullies would start exclusively tormenting their victims in camera deadzones and the victim finally stands up for themselves in view of the camera. all the evidence would show that that kid started a fight unprovoked.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#19

Post by ralusek » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Nope. Not worth it.

There are mountains of evidence demonstrating that people change their behaviors when they know they are being watched. Do we really care about the automatic resolution of petty squabbles between children, or even the coercion of children to never engage in petty squabbles? Do we really want to rob children of mischief, conflict resolution, and making a case for themselves in a way that cannot always be substantiated with hard evidence? Do we really want to condition young minds to see a constant surveillance as a kind of benevolent security blanket?

And that's not even all that's at stake. The Overton window is shrinking as it is, and academia has adopted a censorious and puritanical orthodoxy. Classes benefit a great deal from the students who care enough to challenge what is presented as de facto truth, but I'm inclined to believe that this will give a basis to silence that behavior. Looking back on my own experiences, would I have felt comfortable speaking out against teachers if I knew I was under surveillance? I'm not so sure. But in most cases, even the teachers themselves often told me that they were happy to have somebody engage them meaningfully. But some weren't so happy, and those are the ones that have a new channel for abuse.

And what about the teachers? Some of the best teachers I had would've been fired for what they taught, or allowed students to do. Allowing controversial class discussions, sometimes among students bordering too young to handle the subject matter. Doing a dangerous chemistry or physics demonstration that bends the rules slightly. A classroom led by a cheeky teacher was often ruined by the superintendent or principal standing in the doorway. Now they're in the doorway 24/7.

Re: Welcome to the K-12 Surveillance State

#20

Post by leetcrew » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

UweSchmidt wrote: post #11

panzagl wrote: post #3

Since I can't read the article I can only go with story time here- my wife has cameras in her room and she loves them. Fights about 'who started it' are ended with the words, 'Ok, let's look at the video'. And when some little bully gets called on the carpet and their bullying parent comes in all set to steamroller administration with 'that's not what my child said happened why are you picking on them' the principal…

Wait, there is a camera in the classroom itself, always on? The footage is saved somewhere and can be viewed by who knows who or what algorithm, judging by whatever standards the person or algorithmy applies at that time? ...justified by "solving" various conflicts in the classroom, conflicts that have root causes like large class sizes, social issues, stressful environments, overbearing parents, disrespected teacher…

> Spend any amound of money to have small class sizes, pay teachers better, make schools friendly and welcoming, have more counselors around or whatever.

I share your strong distaste for surveiling children, but I don't think throwing money at the problem is a good solution either. there are plenty of well funded elite private schools that do everything you suggest, but still have severe bullying problems.