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Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

wsj.com

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Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#191

Post by addicted »

fortran77 wrote: post #58
pier25 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Apple products are manufactured in China and have been for years.

But in big letters above it are "DESIGNED IN CALIFORNIA" and that deception works for most people.

The vast majority of profits go to Apple in the US, so I’m not sure why everyone is so focused on China.

I believe we’ve previously seen research that of a $700 iphone, only $30-40 goes to China.

Edit: Here’s the link https://theconversation.com/we-estimate-china-only-makes-8-4...

I was wrong. They estimated only about $8 of the $240 manufacturing cost of an iPhone goes to China.

Edit x2: I remember why I misremembered the number. I had taken a worst case scenario and assumed that the entire unidentified $21 went to China. It then adds up to $30.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#192

Post by free652 »

deehouie wrote: post #190
40acres wrote: post #123

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is growing every day. In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned tho…

If you believe USA has better human rights record, think again. Just read about how this country treats its black citizens. Let me mention the Vietnam war, for which most HN readers are probably familiar with. I was in the War Remnants Museum in Saigon and here is what I saw. In one photo, taken by US journalist, a Viet Cong was being held on the ground by American GIs, a rag is placed over the man's face and water i…

Let me mention that th current Chinese regime is comparable to a regime of an European country in 1943. If we're talking about what happened 50 years ago, we can talk what happened 75 years ago as well.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#193

Post by bassman9000 »

powerapple wrote: post #183
bassman9000 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a really long way of not explaining what the US steals, in terms of IP, from other countries. It was also a pretty lengthy way to mascarade the damning false equivalence. China is, undoubtely, worse, in terms of human rights and development. No, the US is not the best. China is far worse.

Why? Do you think bombing xinjiang is better?

Well, I haven't heard, lately, of a million ughyur imprisoned in real concentration camps in the US.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#194

Post by wuliwong »

riq_ wrote: post #150
40acres wrote: post #123

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is growing every day. In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned tho…

> Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps. First of all: You are not wrong. But similar things can be said about USA. USA steals a lot of stuff too. But of course the American press won't tell you about that. Or if they m…

>USA steals a lot of stuff too

That is a vague response to a more specific claim that China is "ripping off IP" not simply "stuff."

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#195

Post by wahern »

jshowa3 wrote: post #134

I honestly think the China IP rip off is overblown, and this is coming from someone who works there often. Also, if open source software has demonstrated, sequestering IP behind patents is a hindrance to society. And your critique about civil rights abuses could equally be leveled against the US itself. After all, we put several immigrant children in concentration camps on the daily because they just want to move to…

> I honestly think the China IP rip off is overblown, and this is coming from someone who works there often.

You wouldn't be the first person with real experience working in China making that point. From everything I've read the IP issue is way overblown. There are some high-profile cases but in general it seems to be used as a convenient cudgel for other purposes.

AFAICT the real issue working in China is that it's a communist country, heavily bureaucratic with byzantine and entirely unfamiliar legal systems and business networks that almost everybody else, including to a lesser degree other East Asian countries, find very challenging to navigate. Even corruption works differently there. Because it's a communist country power and influence flow in unexpected ways even when everything is above board.

The upshot is that even when criticisms about China are reasonable, they're kinda beside the point because they're not the principle reason companies find it difficult to operate there. Even when the Chinese government wholly cooperates with a reform measure--passes and earnestly applies a law--things invariably go sideways for outsiders.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#196

Post by hurrdurr2 »

throwawayMUSE wrote: post #154
40acres wrote: post #123

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is growing every day. In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned tho…

I work for one of the large companies whose product or services you probably use every day, maybe even multiple times a day. One of the top people in my company has stated concretely to his leadership team that he doesn’t “give a fuck” about existing employees’ mental health or burning out. As long as we keep recruiting and maintain butts in seats, it doesn’t matter. This person is responsible for a massive chunk of…

My current company is the same way. They will pay lip service via HR that they care about their people but in reality, the management decisions show they do not care at all.

All that matters is delivering value to the board and shareholders.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#197

Post by carapace »

As I said the other day:

There are even more compelling reasons to adopt a hard line with the CCP:

"Report on forced organ harvesting in China"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20249489

We're in a situation where we are confronted by our own fundamental values and what they mean to us and what we're willing to do about it.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#198

Post by hurrdurr2 »

wahern wrote: post #195
jshowa3 wrote: post #134

I honestly think the China IP rip off is overblown, and this is coming from someone who works there often. Also, if open source software has demonstrated, sequestering IP behind patents is a hindrance to society. And your critique about civil rights abuses could equally be leveled against the US itself. After all, we put several immigrant children in concentration camps on the daily because they just want to move to…

> I honestly think the China IP rip off is overblown, and this is coming from someone who works there often. You wouldn't be the first person with real experience working in China making that point. From everything I've read the IP issue is way overblown. There are some high-profile cases but in general it seems to be used as a convenient cudgel for other purposes. AFAICT the real issue working in China is that it's…

Good points, the other issue that I rarely see discussed is the fact that the communist party in china is not some monolithic entity that all try to carry out the orders of Xi.

Xi has tried very hard to stamp out any dissent via his "anti-corruption drive", but it still exists. There are various factions vying for power behind the scenes, some ally themselves with Xi, and some do not and are simply biding their time & waiting for Xi to screw up and "lose face".

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#199

Post by sanguy »

Apple is desperate to keep profits flowing while the iPhone and iPad stagnate in sales performance. Services is on the rise; but not fast enough.

So they are being absolutely militant to squeeze any and all profit out of the supply chain they can regardless of what that means.

We know countless US and EU based suppliers who have been replaced by cheaper equivalents in this pursuit of profit. In some cases Apple has even been complicit by helping lower cost vendors improve to displace higher cost US based ones.

Without government trade restrictions this is a logical thing to do when under profit pressures.

The Mac Pro decision was clearly similar. Save a couple % on a 6K machines production costs is all that matters.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#200

Post by droithomme »

Interesting that 80% of the American production line workers were paid minimum wage and had no benefits.

Do the workers in China make more and get benefits?

How does this align with the common claim that American manufacturing is a no-go because labor and benefit costs are simply too high.

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