Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content • Hacker News Board

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#41

Post by mcphage » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

RandomInteger4 wrote: post #37

mcphage wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seeing the word concentration tramp unironically being used in a current world is obscene. No, what's obscene is what we're doing to children. THAT is obscene.

Forcing them to cross deserts while sick with no food or water? Oh, wait, no, that's what their traffickers from Honduras and elsewhere are doing as they claim that those children belong to them when they reach the border so that they can receive higher priority treatment, whereupon they enter and recycle the kids back across the border.

> Oh, wait, no, that's what their traffickers from Honduras and elsewhere

So you're using the fact that these kids are the victims of human trafficking, to make them suffer even more? Do you even listen to what you're saying?

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#42

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 2:56 PM UTC

InvaderFizz wrote: post #10

eesmith wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Escalating what problem? Their policy is at https://www.ravelry.com/content/no-trump . Their argument is "We cannot provide a space that is inclusive of all and also allow support for open white supremacy. Support of the Trump administration is undeniably support for white supremacy." So by "both sides" it seems like you mean the one side in favor of white supremacy, and the other side not in favor of white supremacy…

If your view is that the 60+ million Americans that voted for Trump are, in fact, really voting for white supremacy then we aren't even living in the same reality and any further discussion is completely pointless. It really hurts any credibility someone may have granted you in a conversation when you ascribe to one side of a discussion a world view that is condemned by the vast majority of that side.

> If your view is that the 60+ million Americans that voted for Trump are, in fact, really voting for white supremacy then we aren't even living in the same reality and any further discussion is completely pointless.

Then don't reply, and jog on. You can easily ignore the concentration camps for brown people on your southern border too, the USA is big and the the border is likely far away from you.

I don't blame a knitting website for not wanting to have this discussion. People of all kinds of views can still discuss _kitting_ there.

The way the world works now, with media splits and filter bubbles, your statement is actually fairly accurate: "we aren't even living in the same reality and any further discussion is completely pointless."

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#43

Post by eesmith » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 3:01 PM UTC

whamlastxmas wrote: post #39

eesmith wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.newsweek.com/concentration-camps-alexandria-ocas... > "Concentration camps are considered by experts as 'the mass detention of civilians without trial.' Even without photos, we know there is mass detention of civilians without trial. Do you deny that? What term do you want to use? From the same link: > We don't say 'prisons' because prisons are a part of the formal legal system," Lester Andrist, a sociolo…

There's tons of Jewish people, including a Holocaust survivor and former victim of a real concentration camp, telling AOC to quit her bullshit. The kids are in a detention facility. Donald Trump didn't personally decide "fuck Mexicans" and rip kids out of their loving homes. He's protecting children from the people in an adult detention facility who have actively broken the law and took their families with them in th…

[flagged]

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#44

Post by eesmith » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

0815test wrote: post #38

eesmith wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can support the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - an existing social structure - without being rightly defined as supporting white supremacy. I can support woman's suffrage without being rightly defined as supporting white supremacy. How do you distinguish between "taken as axiomatic" and "is the case"? Eg, I can describe 1970s South Africa as being a white supremacist society, yes? You certainly agree that at one point U…

> ...without being rightly defined as supporting white supremacy. I did say "can be", not "is always defined as such, in a logically-consistent way"! One point that should be quite obvious is that one can always say "that doesn't go far enough!" in a totally unfalsifiable way. (And yes, people have made such arguments, seemingly in all seriousness, even about such things as women's suffrage or civil-rights legislatio…

Then by your definition I am not a radical-progressive.

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#45

Post by eesmith » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

gemjam wrote: post #35

eesmith wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. White supremacy is the broader term. It's meaningful to characterize the (early) American Federation of Labor policies as being rooted in white supremacy. It's not meaningful to characterize them as neo-Nazis. Several 19th century state constitutions prohibited black people from moving to them. This should be correctly understood as white supremacy. They did not prevent Jews from moving to them. Hence those…

We can both cherry-pick history all day long, but back in the real world, the Prime Minister of Israel does not campaign with a white supremacist

Why not?

US domestic policy in the 1950s was explicitly based on white supremacy. Jim Crow laws were actively enforced. Yet the US supported the creation of the State of Israel.

"Golda Meir describes Nixon in her autobiography as the best friend Israel ever had in the presidency and does so in life and death terms." says http://www.jewishmag.com/167mag/kissinger-nixon-war-watergat... which goes on to say "But… Nixon, like many anti-Semites, had a deep admiration for Israel and Israelis".

Nixon's "Southern strategy", infamously, was designed to appeal to racism against African Americans.

So there's no inherent contradiction here.

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#46

Post by DougN7 » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:00 PM UTC

eesmith wrote: post #24

DougN7 wrote: post #21

I remember HN getting up in arms about free speech when porn was banned from some sites, and a few years earlier when rape fantasy was banned from another (sorry, poor memory so I don’t remember more details). But banning pro-Trump is fine. Where are the SJWs now? Trump is an idiot, but this reveals some true bias in this (HN) community. It’s disappointing.

"Where are the SJWs now?" ?? Pardon? Usually the complaint is about SJWs who point out that a site should be free to set their own policies and decide to ban porn, rape fantasies, and white supremacist beliefs. They then get chastised for being "politically correct" and wanting to "censor". Opposing that SJW belief are the free speech absolutists who insist that no site should set policies restricting comment practic…

OK, let's test this. This site banning pro-abortion would be OK? My point is the left is fine banning the right on moral grounds, but if the right bans the left then it's bigotry, free speech suppression, and a different set of morals. Of course the inverse is also true (right gladly bans the left). It's all hypocrisy - that's what I'm calling out.

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#47

Post by eesmith » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:23 PM UTC

DougN7 wrote: post #46

eesmith wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Where are the SJWs now?" ?? Pardon? Usually the complaint is about SJWs who point out that a site should be free to set their own policies and decide to ban porn, rape fantasies, and white supremacist beliefs. They then get chastised for being "politically correct" and wanting to "censor". Opposing that SJW belief are the free speech absolutists who insist that no site should set policies restricting comment practic…

OK, let's test this. This site banning pro-abortion would be OK? My point is the left is fine banning the right on moral grounds, but if the right bans the left then it's bigotry, free speech suppression, and a different set of morals. Of course the inverse is also true (right gladly bans the left). It's all hypocrisy - that's what I'm calling out.

Yes. Completely okay. That's completely in line with my opinion that the organizers of a site have the freedom to associate with whomever they wish - and reject whom they don't wish.

Why's that a problem?

And, most assuredly, I am on the left.

Edit: and an example comment of mine from 2 years ago where I assert that the right to reject people/speech from a private group is just as important as the right to free speech https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15420491 .

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#48

Post by RickJWagner » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #25

RickJWagner wrote: post #16

Shameful. It's fine to disagree with President Trump. It's fine to disagree with Democrats, too. Having an opinion is your right. But to slander and lie, and try to influence people in this way is just wrong. Let's be honest. President Trump has brought record low unemployment, rising wages, and justice reform to African Americans. His support among American Blacks has risen, not fallen. He is doing some good. Yet th…

> They turn racism from something useless into something they can use. This is what is truly 'deplorable'. No, I'm pretty sure it's putting kids into concentration camps that's deplorable. Nice try though.

Really?

Would you compare the ICE holding centers to slave plantations as well? (Which is worse in your eyes-- a concentration camp or a slave plantation?)

Do tell, please.

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#49

Post by boapnuaput » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 11:51 PM UTC

s9w wrote: post #32

eesmith wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.newsweek.com/concentration-camps-alexandria-ocas... > "Concentration camps are considered by experts as 'the mass detention of civilians without trial.' Even without photos, we know there is mass detention of civilians without trial. Do you deny that? What term do you want to use? From the same link: > We don't say 'prisons' because prisons are a part of the formal legal system," Lester Andrist, a sociolo…

AOC said "never again" in her concentration camp remarks, CLEARLY making the connection to WW2 concentration camps.

Oregonian here. Yes, she was talking about WW2 concentration camps. It's disgusting that you've forgotten that, during WW2, we ran concentration camps too, for Japanese-Americans and others who we failed to trust in spite of their citizenship. Read the parent comment again. George Takei was in one of these camps!

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#50

Post by boapnuaput » Wed, Jun 26, 2019, 12:05 AM UTC

0815test wrote: post #23

aantthony wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they say "Support of the Trump administration is undeniably support for white supremacy" as if it were an undisputed fact, and without any argument at all, it really shows how they're incapable of considering an alternative worldview. To an ideologically enslaved mind it literally cannot be denied.

This. The radical progressive's worldview is that our society is itself a white supremacist society - this is taken as axiomatic and a matter of definition , not as something that could be meaningfully argued about, or even be said to depend on anything concrete about the real world! Thus, by definition, any support for existing social structures (including support for President Trump!) can be rightly defined as "sup…

Hi! I'm further left than most progressives.

Our society is not homogenous enough to make a statement like "white supremacist society" substantial. However, there are three closely-related truths which are pretty obvious about our society:

* Our society is, itself, a fascist, classist, militaristic society.

* Pockets of people and parochial cultures in some specific regions are white supremacists.

This isn't definitional or axiomatic, but if you don't perceive these things as true in your day-to-day experience of our country, then you're not likely to feel that they're true. And that's fine! We don't have to agree. But it's useful to point out how and where we don't agree.