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In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

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Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#61

Post by XMPPwocky »

reroute1 wrote: post #46
Kluny wrote: post #34

> In a place I worked, if someone left at 5:30 pm, the CTO used to joke "half day today?", even though the person came in at 9 am. This shit is toxic masculinity in action – the part that affects men. Women protest this kind of thing because if they have children they need to go home to, then they are unable to compete on hours with men who can stay late and rely on their wives. But men deserve time with their famili…

What does this attitude have to do with being male? They have children also. A woman could just as easily have this viewpoint and your anecdotal story doesn't provide any evidence to the contrary. Calling this toxic masculinity isn't just incorrect, it shows that you have a problem with masculinity and are trying to attribute all kinds of negative actions to it.

It doesn't have much to do with being male- that's the point! It has to do with the roles men are expected to play in society, and how "being a man" is culturally defined.

Of course men have children too! Again, that's the point- to a significant degree, the "normal" family- where culture defines what's "normal"- consists of a man who works and focuses on his career, and a woman who takes care of the kids.

So when they talk about toxic masculinity, they're talking about norms. In this case, it seems GP's point is that society considers it more acceptable to expect men to stay at work for long hours than it would for women.

This isn't anything intrinsically male - these are external, social pressures that might influence that CTO's view of a male employee who leaves "early" v.s. a female employee who did the same.

That's the thing so often misunderstood about the term "toxic masculinity" - it's not about what it means to be a man, it's about what society at large expects men to be. It's about stuff like men being expected to be more stoic, and the negative outcomes that can result- things like men not going to the doctor as much and suffering negative health outcomes from treatable conditions as a result.

That said, in this case I think GP is overreaching a bit. A male employee who replied to the CTO's remark with a laugh and a "Got to get back home to my kids!" would probably not raise any eyebrows.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#62

Post by XMPPwocky »

wsgreen wrote: post #48
Kluny wrote: post #34

> In a place I worked, if someone left at 5:30 pm, the CTO used to joke "half day today?", even though the person came in at 9 am. This shit is toxic masculinity in action – the part that affects men. Women protest this kind of thing because if they have children they need to go home to, then they are unable to compete on hours with men who can stay late and rely on their wives. But men deserve time with their famili…

Why are you assuming the CTO was a man?

Where did GP say the CEO was a man?

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#63

Post by reymus »

justaguyhere wrote: post #29

In a place I worked, if someone left at 5:30 pm, the CTO used to joke "half day today?", even though the person came in at 9 am. In many places I worked in the US, it is somewhat of a badge of honor to spend long hours at work (how many of those are actually productive, is a different story). And these aren't even startups. This can't continue - an entire generation of people have been brainwashed that hard work = go…

> In a place I worked, if someone left at 5:30 pm, the CTO used to joke "half day today?", even though the person came in at 9 am.

In both the places I've worked, it's a common joke anyone says when somebody leaves. everybody laughs and nobody gets offended. It doesn't mean anything.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#64

Post by lucideer »

wsgreen wrote: post #48
Kluny wrote: post #34

> In a place I worked, if someone left at 5:30 pm, the CTO used to joke "half day today?", even though the person came in at 9 am. This shit is toxic masculinity in action – the part that affects men. Women protest this kind of thing because if they have children they need to go home to, then they are unable to compete on hours with men who can stay late and rely on their wives. But men deserve time with their famili…

Why are you assuming the CTO was a man?

The comment above is a little bit of a stretch (I'm not sure I'd equate working more to toxic masculinity exactly), but this isn't about being a man: the CTO may have been female, that in itself wouldn't invalidate the comment.

Masculinity in this context is about gendered behaviours (behaviours traditionally expected of men). Toxic masculinity is any such behaviours that have a negative impact on the subject, those around them, or society. Women can also contribute to toxic masculinity.

In fact, within certain corporate cultures, where promotions have traditionally been awarded to men, it may benefit women's careers to adopt such toxic behaviours.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#66

Post by justaguyhere »

mars4rp wrote: post #56
merpnderp wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's sad that a government wouldn't see its citizens being robbed as a problem that affects them, as governments are directly responsible for the regulatory environment in which we all do business.

In US, government is more run like a business, could we collect more revenue? yes? it's a good idea!!!

To be fair to the US, it is the same in many other countries too.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#67

Post by komali2 »

derefr wrote: post #43
komali2 wrote: post #7

>In addition to cultural attitudes about the value of hard work, she said, some employers reduce costs by relying on overtime, and employees work the longer hours for the extra pay and to please the boss — promotions often depend more on time spent at a desk than actual productivity. Agggh hits to home. Arrogant American me rolled into a Taiwanese job expecting to skyrocket up the ladder on results alone. Nope, becau…

Is there any way you could just make it physiologically untenable for anyone to stay in your office past 5PM? Right around 6PM at my apartment, the downstairs tenants light up with the most awful, stanky skunk-weed. You literally cannot keep the windows open; and yet, in the middle of summer and no central AC, you can't afford to be there with them closed, either. So, in effect, my neighbour forces me to ensure I'm n…

Some towns in Japan and Taiwan started playing music over city loudspeakers at 6pm that basically means "it's go-home time now."

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#68

Post by reroute1 »

XMPPwocky wrote: post #61
reroute1 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this attitude have to do with being male? They have children also. A woman could just as easily have this viewpoint and your anecdotal story doesn't provide any evidence to the contrary. Calling this toxic masculinity isn't just incorrect, it shows that you have a problem with masculinity and are trying to attribute all kinds of negative actions to it.

It doesn't have much to do with being male- that's the point! It has to do with the roles men are expected to play in society, and how "being a man" is culturally defined. Of course men have children too! Again, that's the point- to a significant degree, the "normal" family- where culture defines what's "normal"- consists of a man who works and focuses on his career, and a woman who takes care of the kids. So when th…

Except this isn't an area where there is toxicity related to gender roles. Women work as much as men do, and this CTO has an attitude that treats everyone equally. Where does the toxic masculinity enter this scenario?

"a male employee who leaves "early" v.s. a female employee who did the same" Is there a real problem for men leaving the same time as women? I've never encountered this at any job ever.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#69

Post by EnFinlay »

reymus wrote: post #63
justaguyhere wrote: post #29

In a place I worked, if someone left at 5:30 pm, the CTO used to joke "half day today?", even though the person came in at 9 am. In many places I worked in the US, it is somewhat of a badge of honor to spend long hours at work (how many of those are actually productive, is a different story). And these aren't even startups. This can't continue - an entire generation of people have been brainwashed that hard work = go…

> In a place I worked, if someone left at 5:30 pm, the CTO used to joke "half day today?", even though the person came in at 9 am. In both the places I've worked, it's a common joke anyone says when somebody leaves. everybody laughs and nobody gets offended. It doesn't mean anything.

As far as I can tell, jokes are an important method of communication. There are times where they are light-hearted, or just part of the culture, but there are other times (where there is, say, one person in a position of authority, making the same joke repeatedly) where it is meant to call out a behaviour and implicitly shame it.

It's like if you're on the bus and someone's sitting really close. Some people would say "Excuse me, you're too close", but others would jokingly say "Little close, aren't you?", but the meaning is the same - Move.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#70

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

derefr wrote: post #47
bobthepanda wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the problem existing in other places make it an unfounded one? If my house is burning down it's not made acceptable by my neighbor's house also burning down.

It makes it a likely human-cultural universal problem that can't be fixed at the level of national politics (but rather requires something like transhuman genetic engineering to change the way our minds work, or something.) Better to focus on the problems that we have at least one constructive proof of being something other than an irreducible part of the "human 1.0" experience.

Bullshit. A huge chunk of the world used to not let people vote on their governance, or basically gave no rights to women. Turns out that declaring war against England solved part of that, and other actions have made huge headway around the world. The civil rights act had huge effects, despite it being a big problem in many other places.
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