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In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

nytimes.com

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Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#41

Post by tomatocracy »

Arcsech wrote: post #25
CannisterFlux wrote: post #8

An interesting take on this in Spain recently was that unpaid overtime was effectively "robbing from state taxes", because those extra hours should have been paid and so contribute to the government coffers. This resulted in a law (mostly defanged, self reports and no real punishment) that companies must track the time employees spend at work.

Why is "unpaid overtime is robbing from state taxes" a better argument than "unpaid overtime is robbing from workers"?

Sounds a bit like an old ‘legal fiction’ in England - person A claimed that they were unable to pay their taxes because person B owed them money so sued them in the Court of Exchequer (which was not supposed to hear disputes between two subjects but could hear disputes between people who owed the Crown money and the Crown). As the court was a bit more efficient at the time than some of the alternatives and everyone wanted a speedy resolution to the dispute, no one challenged the (non-existent) debt to the Crown.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#42

Post by merpnderp »

phkahler wrote: post #33
Arcsech wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is "unpaid overtime is robbing from state taxes" a better argument than "unpaid overtime is robbing from workers"?

To get someone (the government in this case) to care (change rules) it sometimes helps to frame a problem in a way that affects them. Maybe?

That's sad that a government wouldn't see its citizens being robbed as a problem that affects them, as governments are directly responsible for the regulatory environment in which we all do business.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#43

Post by derefr »

komali2 wrote: post #7

>In addition to cultural attitudes about the value of hard work, she said, some employers reduce costs by relying on overtime, and employees work the longer hours for the extra pay and to please the boss — promotions often depend more on time spent at a desk than actual productivity. Agggh hits to home. Arrogant American me rolled into a Taiwanese job expecting to skyrocket up the ladder on results alone. Nope, becau…

Is there any way you could just make it physiologically untenable for anyone to stay in your office past 5PM?

Right around 6PM at my apartment, the downstairs tenants light up with the most awful, stanky skunk-weed. You literally cannot keep the windows open; and yet, in the middle of summer and no central AC, you can't afford to be there with them closed, either. So, in effect, my neighbour forces me to ensure I'm not home at that hour.

Anyone you could bribe to do the same near your office? :P

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#44

Post by narag »

Arcsech wrote: post #25
CannisterFlux wrote: post #8

An interesting take on this in Spain recently was that unpaid overtime was effectively "robbing from state taxes", because those extra hours should have been paid and so contribute to the government coffers. This resulted in a law (mostly defanged, self reports and no real punishment) that companies must track the time employees spend at work.

Why is "unpaid overtime is robbing from state taxes" a better argument than "unpaid overtime is robbing from workers"?

Because the government (we call it "The State" here) can make a law to fuck everyone while we workers are powerless.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#45

Post by corndoge »

Kluny wrote: post #34

> In a place I worked, if someone left at 5:30 pm, the CTO used to joke "half day today?", even though the person came in at 9 am. This shit is toxic masculinity in action – the part that affects men. Women protest this kind of thing because if they have children they need to go home to, then they are unable to compete on hours with men who can stay late and rely on their wives. But men deserve time with their famili…

I don't think a CTO joshing you on how long you work has to anything to do with gender

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#46

Post by reroute1 »

Kluny wrote: post #34

> In a place I worked, if someone left at 5:30 pm, the CTO used to joke "half day today?", even though the person came in at 9 am. This shit is toxic masculinity in action – the part that affects men. Women protest this kind of thing because if they have children they need to go home to, then they are unable to compete on hours with men who can stay late and rely on their wives. But men deserve time with their famili…

What does this attitude have to do with being male? They have children also. A woman could just as easily have this viewpoint and your anecdotal story doesn't provide any evidence to the contrary. Calling this toxic masculinity isn't just incorrect, it shows that you have a problem with masculinity and are trying to attribute all kinds of negative actions to it.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#47

Post by derefr »

bobthepanda wrote: post #37
kortilla wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it’s an unfounded list of complaints. Other than American exceptionalism you could easily argue that all countries have sub cultures with those exact same problems.

Does the problem existing in other places make it an unfounded one? If my house is burning down it's not made acceptable by my neighbor's house also burning down.

It makes it a likely human-cultural universal problem that can't be fixed at the level of national politics (but rather requires something like transhuman genetic engineering to change the way our minds work, or something.) Better to focus on the problems that we have at least one constructive proof of being something other than an irreducible part of the "human 1.0" experience.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#48

Post by wsgreen »

Kluny wrote: post #34

> In a place I worked, if someone left at 5:30 pm, the CTO used to joke "half day today?", even though the person came in at 9 am. This shit is toxic masculinity in action – the part that affects men. Women protest this kind of thing because if they have children they need to go home to, then they are unable to compete on hours with men who can stay late and rely on their wives. But men deserve time with their famili…

Why are you assuming the CTO was a man?

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#49

Post by Agathos »

Arcsech wrote: post #25
CannisterFlux wrote: post #8

An interesting take on this in Spain recently was that unpaid overtime was effectively "robbing from state taxes", because those extra hours should have been paid and so contribute to the government coffers. This resulted in a law (mostly defanged, self reports and no real punishment) that companies must track the time employees spend at work.

Why is "unpaid overtime is robbing from state taxes" a better argument than "unpaid overtime is robbing from workers"?

A few possible reasons come to mind.

The government may not have standing to sue on the worker's behalf.

The agency that prosecutes tax fraud may be larger and better funded than the agency that protects workers.

One tax evasion charge may combine the cases of thousands of affected workers into one case, where the individual cases are too small and time consuming to pursue.

The penalties for tax evasion may be more severe than the penalties for wage theft.

Re: In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?

#50

Post by commandlinefan »

derefr wrote: post #43
komali2 wrote: post #7

>In addition to cultural attitudes about the value of hard work, she said, some employers reduce costs by relying on overtime, and employees work the longer hours for the extra pay and to please the boss — promotions often depend more on time spent at a desk than actual productivity. Agggh hits to home. Arrogant American me rolled into a Taiwanese job expecting to skyrocket up the ladder on results alone. Nope, becau…

Is there any way you could just make it physiologically untenable for anyone to stay in your office past 5PM? Right around 6PM at my apartment, the downstairs tenants light up with the most awful, stanky skunk-weed. You literally cannot keep the windows open; and yet, in the middle of summer and no central AC, you can't afford to be there with them closed, either. So, in effect, my neighbour forces me to ensure I'm n…

So you mean like, eat burritos at 4:30?
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