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Why are we so pessimistic?

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Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#111

Post by js8 »

benj111 wrote: post #107
cybervegan wrote: post #101

People are pessimistic precisely because they are aware that if we don't do something about the climate crisis, everything will come crashing down. Being optimistic about it, you might say "don't worry, they'll work out a plan" (whoever they are), and then carry on as before, but being pessimistic, you're more likely to think "we'd better do something, and NOW!". When you realise that Live Aid was one of the earliest…

If most people are pessimistic for that reason, why havent they done anything about it? If you're worried about the zombie apocalypse, you start prepping, you don't start complaining about how rubbish the world is because the apocalypse is coming and no ones prepared for it.

We haven't because we are much more social than we realize. We don't want to break social conventions, if possible. We don't want to tell people who are talking with joy about having kids or exotic vacations or luxury cars that they should hold back. Even though we all know that these things are the cause of the problem.

We are facing a collective procrastination of sorts. Just like when you procrastinate, you know very well that you should be doing something else, and you can even be pessimistic about it. Yet you don't.

That's why the governments, people in charge, need to take action, at the very least, start talking about it openly. Then the rest will follow.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#112

Post by benj111 »

yibg wrote: post #62

I think another aspect of this is when life is generally good you start to pay more attention to the little things, and generally there are going to be small annoyances in life. When someone is fighting to feed their family getting a good meal is a hugely uplifting thing, but when hunger isn’t an issue having food come later than you like at a restaurant becomes annoying. I’ve certainly experienced this in myself gro…

You're referring to the hedonic treadmill[1]. I find it useful to A) be aware of it so you can B) reset it every so often.

Objectively we both know it shouldn't be an annoyance choosing food from a menu, so go back to cooking at home for a while, at best you rediscover your love of cooking and don't go back to eating out. At worst you learn to reappreciate just how nice it is having someone else cook.

Same principle applies to every expensive thing that you don't now judge to be a luxury.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#113

Post by benj111 »

pytester wrote: post #103
benj111 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did say 'average' American. The article is about why we're unreasonably pessimistic. You are illustrating the point.

Apparently most americans are one paycheck away from the that: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-are-one-pay...

But the average Americans aren't all going to lose their job at the same time and end up homeless.

The average American will never experience homelessness so citing that as an example of adversity for the average American is wrong.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#114

Post by marcus_holmes »

Medicalidiot wrote: post #102
cryptica wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The adversity is real. Most people have horrible lives. People who are sedated in this so-called "safe comfortable state" are the ones who are being taken advantage of the most. It's like in The Matrix, it's not until you unplug yourself that you realize that the world is worse than it has ever been. Opportunities essentually don't exist at all. Also the argument that "if they don't realize it, then it won't hurt the…

In the Developed world, we don't have to hunt our food. We don't freeze outside. We have comfortable lives in that we have are physiological needs taken care of. Yet, happiness is at an all time low and our psychological needs are neglected. I believe that OP is onto something in that humans are programmed to struggle with something, and if we don't, we start having issues. In my mind this is similar to an autoimmune…

When I went through my depression, I did some reading on it, and this comes up in the literature. Essentially, people who struggle to feed themselves don't get depressed. Depression is a first-world problem because we have the time and luxury for introspection and contemplation.

A large part of what got me out of my depression was making meaning for my life. Discovering what really matters to me, and living my life by my discovered values.

I'm also, now, easily the most optimistic person in my peer-group (I definitely was not before). I believe the world is getting better every year, and that the human race will rise to overcome all the challenges presented to us.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#115

Post by raxxorrax »

nostrademons wrote: post #109
DisruptiveDave wrote: post #35

I have another point of view here - there's power in overcoming adversity. Nearly every movie produced tells you that. But your average American doesn't face real adversity anymore. We are extremely comfortable. Extremely safe. But there's something inside us that needs this adversity, it needs to triumph, to overcome challenges. This is why we run marathons, punish ourselves in the gym, climb mountains. Some of us,…

The Unabomber Manifesto talks about very similar themes. He kinda made a bad name for himself with the whole "killing people" thing, but a lot of his complaints about alienation, the "power principle" and need for struggle, and the feeling that individual freedom is being subsumed under an over-arching technocratic system echo things you might read on HN today. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/…

Pretty smart guy but enslaved by his own fatalism. I do think time will prove him right to a degree, but it won't be the end of civilization as often inferred.

Still worth a read if you are able to separate it from the murder he committed. I wonder if the press would still release manifestos like this today. My government would not and by doing that ironically works towards what he saw as a threat.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#116

Post by AstralStorm »

benj111 wrote: post #105
sonnyblarney wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't believe that thinking about nameless, faceless people thousands and thousands of miles away is particularly effective " But this is what is implied by the opening statement 'The Average American' etc. etc. , no? The 'The Average American' does face 'adversity', because most people are barely getting by. Imagine middle aged parents without spectacular health care coverage, someone gets a cavity and needs a ro…

"It means no car trip to Myrtle Beach, or no piano lessons for the kids, or worse, having to put it on the Credit Card" That's your example of facing adversity? Did you read the article? If you're lying awake at night worrying whether you can afford little Timmy's piano lessons you aren't in the same boat as a cave man that's worried about getting eaten by a lion.

There's more. If Timmy does not make the competitive job market he might as well have been eaten by the lion. Which depends on access to right tutoring and right connections more than right skills.

Getting eaten by a lion is less misery. And a lion you can fight with a few guys. Job market? Might as well be hitting a tank with your bare fists.

If anything, it's the lack of control and not the level of adversity that is the problem.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#117

Post by raxxorrax »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #31
mamon wrote: post #10

There's really no such thing as pessimism. People can only be: - realistic - optimistic (a.k.a. delusional)

Um, no. Very much no. Some optimism is delusion; but not all is. And your pessimism isn't realism, no matter how much you want to define it to be.

If I read that comment optimistically, I think it was a joke.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#118

Post by fastbeef »

DisruptiveDave wrote: post #35

I have another point of view here - there's power in overcoming adversity. Nearly every movie produced tells you that. But your average American doesn't face real adversity anymore. We are extremely comfortable. Extremely safe. But there's something inside us that needs this adversity, it needs to triumph, to overcome challenges. This is why we run marathons, punish ourselves in the gym, climb mountains. Some of us,…

Thank you for this comment. I'm currently going through a stressful time dealing with a legal situation that's, objectively, annoying at best. Yet I'm paralyzed every time I open up my mail client to type out the next email to my lawyer, fearing to make an error.

Your comment put it in a very different perspective. Thank you, I'm going to write that email now.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#119

Post by AstralStorm »

icelancer wrote: post #68
sonnyblarney wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, no, this is almost insulting. Having to raise a family, maintain one's well-being, and being a good community member all while having to live in dour conditions that are never likely to improve , I would argue is actual adversity .

>> that are never likely to improve In the United States, your effort towards this goal have an insanely high correlation with actually making it happen. Perhaps the best in any country in the world, in fact.

Have any data to actually back it up? Such as real number of people who made an effort and failed? And how they failed, and to where? And how well they were initially off?

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#120

Post by marcus_holmes »

DisruptiveDave wrote: post #50
sonnyblarney wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree for many of us ... but I think 'life is not easy' for the bottom 50%. Most people sling coffee, serve food, work in factories, panic around in delivery vehicles all day, and with one wrongs step or bad health outcome they could be in doom. Lack of job stability, longer retirement, lack of community ... these things take their tole. Kind of a permanent existential anxiety. Just 'keeping on doing', facing the d…

This point also confirms my relativity of perception thoughts. Yes, compared to me, the bottom 50% certainly has more adversity. But why stop there? The bottom 50% in America is likely the top 20% somewhere else (I'm making all of this up, of course). Then the bottom 50% of that 20% is likely the top 1% somewhere else. And on and on it goes. I don't believe that thinking about nameless, faceless people thousands and…

I've spent a couple of years wandering around SE Asia, and that involves seeing a lot of real poverty close up.

The striking thing about what I noticed is is: Only the lonely people are unhappy. Give the average Cambodian a bucket of chicken feet and a carton of beer and they'll immediately share it with their friends/family and be unbelievably happy.

They have really strong community and family ties, and while that does have downsides (especially for women, whose behaviour is under control almost all the time), it also gives incredible support and comfort.

The contrast between Camobodia and Australia is noticeable: Cambodians are mostly poor and happy, and Australians are mostly rich and angry.

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