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Why are we so pessimistic?

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Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#51

Post by sanderjd »

malvosenior wrote: post #48
DrJones1098 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think propaganda works on people so I disagree with your statement that propaganda wasn't the reason Trump was elected. One example...Ads.. are non-political propaganda for companies and are billion dollar industry....for example Nike shoes are made in China and sold at insane markups...simply because of advertising/propaganda/branding. People are easily influenced in my opinion.

Clinton raised and spent roughly 1.5X as much money as Trump. She also had near universal support from actors, sports figures, the media (aka the people Nike pays that money to). It didn’t win her the election. Some crappy banner ads on Facebook don’t even register against that.

Personally, I always feel unsure that the evidence that foreign propaganda affected the election is very strong. But I also feel that people making the case that the evidence isn't strong universally dismissively downplay the problem, which makes me distrust their argument. Your "some crappy banner ads" thing is exactly this. Your dismissal of the problem as only "some crappy banner ads" makes it seem like you haven't grappled with worse things like social sharing of propaganda. Maybe that problem is also overplayed, but it isn't clear to me whether that's the case, and your dismissiveness doesn't convince me.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#52

Post by graeme »

SomeOldThrow wrote: post #29
graeme wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think society as a whole is rather optimistic on climate change: currently we aren’t even trying to solve it policy wise. If we were more pessimistic, we would take preventative measures seriously. “Everyone believes the future will be worse and it’s not possible to avoid it” is a strawman, I think.

Global warming is a thread the needle problem: people need to be worried enough to act, but not to give up. Collective action is the ONLY way through this. Last year ABC news gave more air time to the new royal baby in a single week than they gave to climate collapse in a year. You may feel inundated with pessimism, but that is far from universal. (Source: https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2019/05/21/ABC-News-spent-.…

Did you mean to reply to me? I said people weren't pessimistic enough.

But I think you're right that complacency/activism is a good lense to view things through. The people that accept climate change is happening remain fairly complacent. Whether this is due to insufficient pessimism or complacency, the result is the same.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#53

Post by fuzz4lyfe »

sanderjd wrote: post #49
fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key to the Clinton email server is that the purpose of it was to avoid FOIA requests. Any hacking in regards to it is closer to the law than the alternative.

The hacking thing wasn't related to Clinton's emails, it was the DNC's emails, which are not subject to FOIA. That these things are conflated in many peoples' minds is ... kinda the point.

How was it unrelated to the Russian hacking narrative? From Wikipedia:

"According to security researchers at Secureworks the email leak was caused by Threat Group-4127, later attributed to Fancy Bear, a unit that targets governments, military, and international non-governmental organizations. The researchers report moderate confidence that the unit gathers intelligence on behalf of the Russian government."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton_email_contro...

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#54

Post by sanderjd »

oblib wrote: post #26
mbfg wrote: post #7

If you've always lived in a society where things are generally bad then it's likely that at present times things are getting better even if only slightly. On the other hand if you're living in places that have generally always been good, it's likely that things are starting to regress. Given that most of the people who comment about such things on social media and otherwise or likely from the latter camp, it's not su…

I can agree that the rhetoric and division is heated right now to levels near what it was in the mid `60s - early `70s but I don't think we're as close to that tipping point as some might feel. By the mid 70s things calmed down a lot. It feels to me like we peaked in the year after Trump was elected and things have been easing since. I'm basing this mostly on my FB feed but I think it's a fairly good barometer to gau…

This is an encouraging anecdote but "not advocating for the overthrow of our constitutional system of government" seems like a pretty low bar to ask for in our fellow citizens...

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#55

Post by nitwit005 »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #37
DisruptiveDave wrote: post #35

I have another point of view here - there's power in overcoming adversity. Nearly every movie produced tells you that. But your average American doesn't face real adversity anymore. We are extremely comfortable. Extremely safe. But there's something inside us that needs this adversity, it needs to triumph, to overcome challenges. This is why we run marathons, punish ourselves in the gym, climb mountains. Some of us,…

I agree for many of us ... but I think 'life is not easy' for the bottom 50%. Most people sling coffee, serve food, work in factories, panic around in delivery vehicles all day, and with one wrongs step or bad health outcome they could be in doom. Lack of job stability, longer retirement, lack of community ... these things take their tole. Kind of a permanent existential anxiety. Just 'keeping on doing', facing the d…

People regularly risk their lives and risk imprisonment for the chance to be a poor person in a wealthy country. If the daily grind is "adversity", there seem to be millions who want it desperately.

And even those people are often better off than a typical human for most of history.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#56

Post by xedrac »

redsymbol wrote: post #44

Years ago, I was part of a a guided tour at the San Francisco modern art museum. And they had this wooden sculpture of Popeye (old cartoon character, you can look him up - kind of a tough/strong but lovable sailor guy). It looked old, bedraggled and beat-up looking; I think it was assembled from found driftwood or something. But when I looked at the sculpture, I saw strength. Good-natured defiance and tenacity. That…

I am naturally pessimistic, and love this perspective. I have to continually exert effort to re-frame my thoughts from something negative to something neutral/positive. Otherwise I end up spiraling out of control mentally and stuck in a deep depression. The nice thing is I'm getting better at it, and it has become much easier.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#57

Post by nercht12 »

... Why not take the obvious answer: It's easy to be pessimistic when you interact with people. Just read HN and see how everyone disagrees. You start to think things won't ever get resolved, even among people with "good intentions".

Notably, of course, the KIND of pessimism or the TARGET of pessimism varies per individual based on their natural concerns, life situation, and lots of other variables. For example, individuals who like to think ahead / intuitive mentalities tend to plan out possibilities, and if you try to plan for all cases of Murphy's Law, it's going to make you feel like there's no end to the madness.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#58

Post by JackFr »

mymythisisthis wrote: post #32
mbfg wrote: post #7

If you've always lived in a society where things are generally bad then it's likely that at present times things are getting better even if only slightly. On the other hand if you're living in places that have generally always been good, it's likely that things are starting to regress. Given that most of the people who comment about such things on social media and otherwise or likely from the latter camp, it's not su…

For many, the small disappointments have added up. Your school music program was cut, your college raised its costs, you just missed getting a good job, the recession cost you a promotion, wages haven't gone up. It's been a death by a thousand cuts for many people. We've stopped being optimistic.

I don’t buy the death by a thousand cuts — by itself.

I think the disappearance of a transcendent purpose, especially in the public sphere, combined with those little things that has brought on the pessimism.

When everyone’s getting richer, being a hedonic consumption machine is a rewarding existence. But if ones highest purpose is a pleasant and pleasurable life, you’ll be ill prepared when adversity strikes.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#59

Post by pfdietz »

jfengel wrote: post #18
Negitivefrags wrote: post #4

I believe that pessimism is the greatest crisis facing humanity today. Yes, that includes climate change. It's just not possible for a civilization to make progress if everyone believes that the future will be worse and it's not possible to avoid it.

To me, it's our inability to solve climate change that makes me so pessimistic. Not because of the climate itself, but because of the ability of a smallish set of people completely insulated from reality to thoroughly prevent our ability to do anything about it. Climate change is a relatively straightforward problem with a somewhat-less-straightforward set of solutions. Whatever solution we choose, it will involve a…

I think we're doing really well at moving toward a solution to CO2 buildup. The cost of renewables has fallen remarkably, and will almost certainly continue to fall. Once fossil fuels become uneconomical the air will go out of their balloon, and they will not be able to bribe politicians to keep the burning going.

I think you're going to be amazed at the changes that are coming, and how relatively painless they will be.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#60

Post by sonnyblarney »

GavinMcG wrote: post #46
sonnyblarney wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree for many of us ... but I think 'life is not easy' for the bottom 50%. Most people sling coffee, serve food, work in factories, panic around in delivery vehicles all day, and with one wrongs step or bad health outcome they could be in doom. Lack of job stability, longer retirement, lack of community ... these things take their tole. Kind of a permanent existential anxiety. Just 'keeping on doing', facing the d…

Okay, tweak it to say overcoming meaningful adversity, that satisfies our need for narrative/place/existential order.

Wow, no, this is almost insulting.

Having to raise a family, maintain one's well-being, and being a good community member all while having to live in dour conditions that are never likely to improve, I would argue is actual adversity.

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