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Why are we so pessimistic?

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Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#61

Post by roenxi »

edraferi wrote: post #17
Swizec wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems we are close to a tipping point where we may lose what semblance we had of a democracy. Oh please. I grew up in a post-communist European country. You guys are doing great! Keep it up.

That’s exactly the problem though. Post-Soviet states money-bombing our politics out from underneath us. We know where that leads and don’t want it at all. Unfortunately they’re good at it so it’s taking time to vote our way out of the mess.

As opposed to American corporate interests lining up to money bomb politics out from underneath you?

Nobody seems to have contested that the emails released were real emails written by the Democrats. It is a pretty disgraceful violation of privacy, but ultimately if honestly talking about what your political opponents are doing is an election winning strategy the future is bright.

Most of the evidence is telling the truth about politicians doesn't move the needle all that much. I doubt it is a trend that will catch on, the Republicans are probably going to stick to calling people names.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#62

Post by yibg »

I think another aspect of this is when life is generally good you start to pay more attention to the little things, and generally there are going to be small annoyances in life. When someone is fighting to feed their family getting a good meal is a hugely uplifting thing, but when hunger isn’t an issue having food come later than you like at a restaurant becomes annoying.

I’ve certainly experienced this in myself growing up. We grew up poor but most things didn’t get us down, they were just normal aspects of life. We had to hunt for bargains, not take vacations, always cook at home. It was the baseline. When we did eat out everyone was looking forward to it and really enjoyed it. Now life in economic sense is measurably better for me, but eating out at whatever place I feel like is the new baseline. I no longer look forward to it, it’s just feeding myself. Now when I can’t decide what I want to have for dinner it becomes a minor annoyance. Something objectively better has become in some ways a worse experience.

I try to put things in perspective and be grateful for what I have now, but I admit I don’t always succeed.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#63

Post by aeternus »

redsymbol wrote: post #44

Years ago, I was part of a a guided tour at the San Francisco modern art museum. And they had this wooden sculpture of Popeye (old cartoon character, you can look him up - kind of a tough/strong but lovable sailor guy). It looked old, bedraggled and beat-up looking; I think it was assembled from found driftwood or something. But when I looked at the sculpture, I saw strength. Good-natured defiance and tenacity. That…

Yes, people seem to greatly underestimate how much their own outlook affects others.

This is actually an important quality I try to look for when hiring. I've seen some very technically competent leads cause team productivity and morale to plummet due to their negativity and pessimistic outlook.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#64

Post by krustyburger »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #60
GavinMcG wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, tweak it to say overcoming meaningful adversity, that satisfies our need for narrative/place/existential order.

Wow, no, this is almost insulting. Having to raise a family, maintain one's well-being, and being a good community member all while having to live in dour conditions that are never likely to improve , I would argue is actual adversity .

If one is convinced that their lot in life is dour, there is often no specific change or improvement that would change that outlook. Objectively, almost all of us in the Western world have it very good compared with the vast majority of human beings who have lived on this planet. This is true even if we work in menial jobs or have less than glamorous lifestyles.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#65

Post by sonnyblarney »

DisruptiveDave wrote: post #50
sonnyblarney wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree for many of us ... but I think 'life is not easy' for the bottom 50%. Most people sling coffee, serve food, work in factories, panic around in delivery vehicles all day, and with one wrongs step or bad health outcome they could be in doom. Lack of job stability, longer retirement, lack of community ... these things take their tole. Kind of a permanent existential anxiety. Just 'keeping on doing', facing the d…

This point also confirms my relativity of perception thoughts. Yes, compared to me, the bottom 50% certainly has more adversity. But why stop there? The bottom 50% in America is likely the top 20% somewhere else (I'm making all of this up, of course). Then the bottom 50% of that 20% is likely the top 1% somewhere else. And on and on it goes. I don't believe that thinking about nameless, faceless people thousands and…

"I don't believe that thinking about nameless, faceless people thousands and thousands of miles away is particularly effective "

But this is what is implied by the opening statement 'The Average American' etc. etc. , no?

The 'The Average American' does face 'adversity', because most people are barely getting by.

Imagine middle aged parents without spectacular health care coverage, someone gets a cavity and needs a root canal. That's $1000 - and actually beyond the 'average Americans' ability to pay for out of hand. A cavity can be little economic emergency. It means no car trip to Myrtle Beach, or no piano lessons for the kids, or worse, having to put it on the Credit Card, pay terrible rates etc.. And 'cousin Joe' was pulled over for DUI. He'll lose his job if he doesn't make bail, he needs you to co-sign for him. Now you have to make sure he shows up for court. Parents are inching older, have some income but likely need to go into a home, which will be exceedingly expensive. There are umpteen such challenges is 'most people's lives'.

So I agree with the sentiment that normal, employed middle class families wherein there's stability and gainful employment, low crime etc. - yes, it's effete, and not much adversity there.

There is a class of Americans for whom life doesn't have a lot of adversity, fully agree. But it's not 'most'.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#66

Post by lagg »

yibg wrote: post #62

I think another aspect of this is when life is generally good you start to pay more attention to the little things, and generally there are going to be small annoyances in life. When someone is fighting to feed their family getting a good meal is a hugely uplifting thing, but when hunger isn’t an issue having food come later than you like at a restaurant becomes annoying. I’ve certainly experienced this in myself gro…

You know, all those in this thread revealing their membership of Those-Who-Walk-Uphill-Both-Ways are going to get a serious reprimanding.

But yeah I would have to agree with you. Family history of the same kind of poverty shopping. Making a contest of the lowest gas and grocery prices with the membership, food bank and all that. I shat myself when I got an NES from the pawn shop for my birthday once. It certainly instills something in the brain.

I mean I'm still the guy that subsists on plain fruits & veggies, noodles, rice, beans, plain oats and the occasional indulgence of pizza and steak. But I'm also not worried or hurting for anything currently and am happier than I've ever been previously. Which I imagine is optimism, and other concerns tend to make other events kind of feel like noise.

The cumulative inability to relate to pop culture or current events really wrecks my networking efficiency I feel like. I'm not sure I should be so unaware about the news and encroaching issues. But oh well. The ultimately important things have a way of finding themselves to oneself I guess.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#67

Post by Mikeb85 »

sanderjd wrote: post #51
malvosenior wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clinton raised and spent roughly 1.5X as much money as Trump. She also had near universal support from actors, sports figures, the media (aka the people Nike pays that money to). It didn’t win her the election. Some crappy banner ads on Facebook don’t even register against that.

Personally, I always feel unsure that the evidence that foreign propaganda affected the election is very strong. But I also feel that people making the case that the evidence isn't strong universally dismissively downplay the problem, which makes me distrust their argument. Your "some crappy banner ads" thing is exactly this. Your dismissal of the problem as only "some crappy banner ads" makes it seem like you haven'…

Not the OP, but to me, if Russian propaganda is somehow stronger than US propaganda, maybe it means that the American public is sick of the status quo and have lost faith in the image that the US sells to them?

The US attempts to influence Russian elections all the time, but Slavs aren't easily influenced, due to their innate cynicism about, well, everything.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#68

Post by icelancer »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #60
GavinMcG wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, tweak it to say overcoming meaningful adversity, that satisfies our need for narrative/place/existential order.

Wow, no, this is almost insulting. Having to raise a family, maintain one's well-being, and being a good community member all while having to live in dour conditions that are never likely to improve , I would argue is actual adversity .

>> that are never likely to improve

In the United States, your effort towards this goal have an insanely high correlation with actually making it happen. Perhaps the best in any country in the world, in fact.

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#69

Post by icelancer »

DrJones1098 wrote: post #45
thrower123 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Russian propaganda canard is worrying, because it is this thought-terminator that prevents considering that there are actual people with real reasons for voting the way that they do. Are the Russian spy agencies conducting propaganda? Of course they are. Are they the reason Trump was elected, or people voted for Brexit, or the Yellow Vests are marching in Paris? Hell no.

I personally think propaganda works on people so I disagree with your statement that propaganda wasn't the reason Trump was elected. One example...Ads.. are non-political propaganda for companies and are billion dollar industry....for example Nike shoes are made in China and sold at insane markups...simply because of advertising/propaganda/branding. People are easily influenced in my opinion.

>> for example Nike shoes are made in China and sold at insane markups...simply because of advertising/propaganda/branding

This is part of it. It couldn't also be because that Nike shoes (Blue Ribbon before them) made a superior product that matched the needs of the market for years on end, could it? Are all sales and mega corporations only due to advertising and propaganda? Or could quality maybe have some part of it?

Re: Why are we so pessimistic?

#70

Post by SomeOldThrow »

graeme wrote: post #52
SomeOldThrow wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Global warming is a thread the needle problem: people need to be worried enough to act, but not to give up. Collective action is the ONLY way through this. Last year ABC news gave more air time to the new royal baby in a single week than they gave to climate collapse in a year. You may feel inundated with pessimism, but that is far from universal. (Source: https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2019/05/21/ABC-News-spent-.…

Did you mean to reply to me? I said people weren't pessimistic enough. But I think you're right that complacency/activism is a good lense to view things through. The people that accept climate change is happening remain fairly complacent. Whether this is due to insufficient pessimism or complacency, the result is the same.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as contrary! I certainly agree, I just wanted to tweak the framing.
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