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About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

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Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#61

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

alasdair_ wrote: post #35
chatmasta wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong and China are separate legal jurisdictions, which seems to be the relevant distinction when considering extradition laws. It’s a bit reductive to describe Hong Kong as a “Chinese territory.” What do you think would happen if China attempted to forcefully annex Hong Kong?

>What do you think would happen if China attempted to forcefully annex Hong Kong? Lots of social media posts. Little action. Just like the Crimea.

Crimea has the problem that the annexation was very, very popular among Crimeans, even more so than most separatist movements. That doesn't make it okay, but after the fact, it'd be hard for third parties to justify forcibly reuniting Crimeans with the Ukranian government they don't want to be under.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#62

Post by JumpCrisscross »

cdmckay wrote: post #59
eqing wrote: post #50

People at both sides think they are legit. An average HKer: I don't trust China's Justice system, which is heavily influenced by their government. I could be sent to China for made-up crime. An average Chinese: Its a shame that HK as a part of China has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not Macau/Taiwan/Mainland (historical law by british). Imagine the same case for Hawaii and US Mainland.

Also, China has explicitly stated that want HK and Macau to join the same system as the rest of China. It’s just a matter of time.

> It’s just a matter of time

Well, yes. The handover is explicit in 2047. This whole mess was an avoidable miscalculation prioritising Xi’s short-term political interests over China’s long-term strategic wellbeing.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#63

Post by dymk »

loyukfai wrote: post #41
dymk wrote: post #5

Every article I see about the HK protests makes sure to focus on how non-violent the gathering was. I see many people framing that non-violence as a better way to affect change in their government. I sincerely hope that a non-violent protest gets these people the change they want, but I take real issue in framing violent protests as unnecessary when your historically oppressive government refuses to listen to the wil…

As others have pointed out, HK government is not historically oppressive, physically speaking. So if the protesters initiate violence without being provoked, mass opinions may change real quick. IMO we better consider this on a case-by-case basis. If non-violent protests can and will work in more places in future, why not?

Like I said, I hope they work, but I see no reason for the HK government or Beijing to respect this, given there's no actual threat of the people protesting in a more forceful way.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#64

Post by devoply »

cdmckay wrote: post #60
devoply wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US killed Huawei overnight, a world-class competitor which was basically beating US companies, using pretty shoddy justification. So I would not rule out no one can challenge China, China is not the US. And even if it were Vietnam still beat their ass.

Define “killed”. Huawei seems to be around last I checked.

Cut off from global markets. Cut off from probably most international suppliers. Cut off from all American patents. In its current state I doubt it will last very long as anything outside of China.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#65

Post by briandear »

tmp2846 wrote: post #22
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this level of participation would never happen in the US It probably would. We just don’t have an issue that imminently and clearly threatens the wellbeing of 2/7ths of the population, and for which a simple solution ( e.g. withdrawing a bill) presents itself. When American cities get pissed off and form a consensus, they certainly turn out.

I’m sure more than 2/7 of the population would argue the current president immediately threatens their wellbeing, but won’t demonstrate to show it.

I bet that if you didn’t tell people who was president, the vast majority of Americans would notice exactly no differences between the last president. Slightly different tax rates and slightly different employment rates maybe, but practically no detectable difference. People’s retirement accounts are still healthy, people have jobs, wage growth (or non growth) is similar. The only difference is the level and type of rhetoric. Businesses might notice that it’s a bit easier to get things done, but the actual change between Obama and Trump is benign when you take the media out of it. Deportations of illegal aliens was actually higher under Obama if that’s your issue. But the US is characterized by stability and even under Trump, the US is a functionally stable as it has ever been. Under Reagan, a certain element was convinced the sky was falling, under Obama, the same thing. The US isn’t perfect, but it’s all going along reasonably well. The media likes to create non-stop urgency over everything, but that helps them sell more ads. I don’t buy into the hype that the world is ending. We could always be better and not everyone will ever be happy, but for most of us, American politics is two sides of the same coin and we like it like that. We don’t want revolutionary shifts every four or eight years; we want stability and predictability — that’s why our economy is so strong and our currency so safe.

Nobody’s wellbeing is being immediately affected by this president any more than the last one.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#67

Post by learc83 »

eqing wrote: post #50

People at both sides think they are legit. An average HKer: I don't trust China's Justice system, which is heavily influenced by their government. I could be sent to China for made-up crime. An average Chinese: Its a shame that HK as a part of China has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not Macau/Taiwan/Mainland (historical law by british). Imagine the same case for Hawaii and US Mainland.

Hawaii isn't an appropriate equivalent. Puerto Rico or American Somoa are closer but still not close enough to make the analogy work.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#68

Post by swjz »

hker wrote: post #57
swjz wrote: post #18

They've made it. The Chief Executive apologized and the government has suspended the fugitive law amendment. That's really a RARE concession in these years because the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under pressure.

> They've made it. The Chief Executive apologized and the government has suspended the fugitive law amendment. That's really a RARE concession in these years because the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under pressure. First, the government is suspending the law amendment, not retracting it. The law amendment could be revived in a month or two--that is, after enough leaders have been arrested an…

I agree with you that the government should release all protesters arrested. I actually don't care about the difference between "suspension without timetable for restarting" and "retraction" because even if the government had completely retracted the amendment, they could draft another amendment anytime anyway.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#69

Post by chatmasta »

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #53
chatmasta wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong and China are separate legal jurisdictions, which seems to be the relevant distinction when considering extradition laws. It’s a bit reductive to describe Hong Kong as a “Chinese territory.” What do you think would happen if China attempted to forcefully annex Hong Kong?

How would you proceed to "annex" your own territory? HK is not Crimea (mentioned by someone else), it is Chinese but enjoys a high degree of autonomy until 2047.

You send a bunch of soldiers into the territory and say the treaty is canceled, 28 years early.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#70

Post by loyukfai »

ddingus wrote: post #2

It will be rough. China is unlikely to rest.

Yes, but she's probably too occupied at the moment to kick another honest's nest.

Also, HK can be a valve for the Chinese economy if the trade war continues to deteriorate.

The majority of the Chinese people have no idea what's happening in HK anyway, so it's not like HK will lead to troubles in other Chinese cities by itself, at least not in the short-term. So it is IMO wise for the Chinese government to leave HK alone for the time being.

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