About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests • Hacker News Board

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#51

Post by swjz » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

swjz wrote: post #33

swjz wrote: post #18

They've made it. The Chief Executive apologized and the government has suspended the fugitive law amendment. That's really a RARE concession in these years because the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under pressure.

That's indeed true. But I see such suspension as a kind of signal that Beijing would like to compromise, which is nearly impossible. In practice, the "suspension" simply means that it's over because Beijing doesn't want to "lose face" and intentionally picked a moderate word to make both sides happy.

Note that the government statement says "There is no timetable for restarting the process." Even if the government had completely retracted the amendment, they could draft another amendment anytime anyway. That's why I think they've made it.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#52

Post by gbear605 » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

tmp2846 wrote: post #22

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this level of participation would never happen in the US It probably would. We just don’t have an issue that imminently and clearly threatens the wellbeing of 2/7ths of the population, and for which a simple solution ( e.g. withdrawing a bill) presents itself. When American cities get pissed off and form a consensus, they certainly turn out.

I’m sure more than 2/7 of the population would argue the current president immediately threatens their wellbeing, but won’t demonstrate to show it.

Very few people in the USA feel that their wellbeing is being threatened by Trump in the same way that many people in HK feel threatened by the Chinese government.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#53

Post by NotPaidToPost » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

chatmasta wrote: post #26

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes HK so special that they must have an extradition treaty with China? Apart from being a Chinese territory?

Hong Kong and China are separate legal jurisdictions, which seems to be the relevant distinction when considering extradition laws. It’s a bit reductive to describe Hong Kong as a “Chinese territory.” What do you think would happen if China attempted to forcefully annex Hong Kong?

How would you proceed to "annex" your own territory?

HK is not Crimea (mentioned by someone else), it is Chinese but enjoys a high degree of autonomy until 2047.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#54

Post by not_a_moth » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

geophile wrote: post #31

How is it they are not fucked? No country that wants to continue to do business with China is going to back this uprising. Is there an imaginible sequence of events that doesn't result in either capitulation or a violent crushing of dissent?

Well, HK is the most powerful financial center in Asia, not to mention a recent UK colony. It has far more Western leverage against China than say Taiwan.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#55

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 5:22 PM UTC

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #15

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as you can make it back to HK then you are above the law in Macau/mainland China/Taiwan Not sure what’s going on with this account’s posting history. That said, this allegation is false. Taiwan supports the protesters [1]. Taiwan and Hong Kong, both lawful jurisdictions, are free to enter into extradition agreements with each other. This extradition bill was a ham-fisted attempt by Beijing to subjugate Hong…

What I wrote is not an allegation. It is a fact as there is currently no extradition from HK to Macau/mainland China/Taiwan. The whole bill was brought forward because of a HK resident accused of murdering his girlfriend in Taiwan and who fled back to HK. You can say that this was a pretext to bring the bill forward but it still highlights a real issue. The Taiwanese government is being cynical here. It's also diffic…

> The whole bill was brought forward because of a HK resident accused of murdering his girlfriend in Taiwan and who fled back to HK

Germany broadly prohibits the extradition of its citizens [1]. (As does China [2].) This doesn’t turn Germans and Chinese into lawless actors outside their borders. It just means their international crimes tend to be domestically prosecuted.

There are many ways to solve the problem of cross-border crime. Extradition is one of them. It works when you have two jurisdictions with rule of law. It is a bad solution between Hong Kong and China.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Own_citizens

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_China

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#56

Post by gbear605 » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 5:22 PM UTC

laydn wrote: post #44

booleandilemma wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you expect us to rally for? Genderless bathrooms?

How about : "how come we have more than 500.000 people file for bankruptcy every year, due to medical bills?"

That’s bad. It’s not nearly as bad as “my way of life and the way of life for all my friends and family is completely at risk”

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#57

Post by hker » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 5:22 PM UTC

swjz wrote: post #18

They've made it. The Chief Executive apologized and the government has suspended the fugitive law amendment. That's really a RARE concession in these years because the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under pressure.

> They've made it. The Chief Executive apologized and the government has suspended the fugitive law amendment. That's really a RARE concession in these years because the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under pressure.

First, the government is suspending the law amendment, not retracting it. The law amendment could be revived in a month or two--that is, after enough leaders have been arrested and the protest cools down, just like how they cold-handled the Umbrella protest in 2014, or many other protests in China--for all we know now.

Second, the government is arresting people under the charge of "riot" [1]--despite HN'ers labeling such protest as non-violent, the charge of riot means a maximum term of 10 years--and they arrest people even by violating patients' privacy and eroding trust from patients to doctors [2]. If charged, some protesters have to pay a high price, joining others who have been paying the price due to Umbrella protest.

I would not say they have made it until the law is at least retracted.

[1]: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/13/hong-kong-protesters-c...

[2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c0l9vl/hk_hospita...

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#58

Post by loyukfai » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #16

kovek wrote: post #4

Is that around 2/7th of the population? What are some alternative systems to make the people have a stronger impact?

2/7th is huge. The Bolsheviks had a tiny, tiny percentage of the population and they took over Russia. Also 2/7 participation doesn’t mean 2/7th support. A lot of people might support the movement but are unwilling for various reasons to take to the streets. 2/7 is historic and huge.

The other 5/7 may watch TVB - a HK TV channel of which to many people is their only news source, and which has since been bought by mainlanders, just like many other media and publishing assets in HK - and believe in something totally else.

No joke, if you watch only TVB news, you will think the HK government is doing a great job and these protesters are arrogant, dis-obedient trouble-makers.

The gap in understanding can be really really big.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#59

Post by cdmckay » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

eqing wrote: post #50

People at both sides think they are legit. An average HKer: I don't trust China's Justice system, which is heavily influenced by their government. I could be sent to China for made-up crime. An average Chinese: Its a shame that HK as a part of China has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not Macau/Taiwan/Mainland (historical law by british). Imagine the same case for Hawaii and US Mainland.

Also, China has explicitly stated that want HK and Macau to join the same system as the rest of China.

It’s just a matter of time.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#60

Post by cdmckay » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

devoply wrote: post #37

geophile wrote: post #31

How is it they are not fucked? No country that wants to continue to do business with China is going to back this uprising. Is there an imaginible sequence of events that doesn't result in either capitulation or a violent crushing of dissent?

US killed Huawei overnight, a world-class competitor which was basically beating US companies, using pretty shoddy justification. So I would not rule out no one can challenge China, China is not the US. And even if it were Vietnam still beat their ass.

Define “killed”. Huawei seems to be around last I checked.