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Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

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Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#131

Post by tempguy9999 »

wahern wrote: post #82
Eyes wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it triggers a cascading increase in intelligence, and they end up taking up arms and conquering us.

In every species except man, the benefits of intelligence are largely limited to a single individual or a small family clan. Without widespread cooperative behavior there can be no evolutionary pressure to push intelligence to our heights. What use is it for a gorilla to read or have complex language if it can't be used to cooperate with a large number of other individuals? Unfortunately, both Darwinian genetics and…

> In every species except man, the benefits of intelligence are largely limited to a single individual or a small family clan.

Gordon Bennet, justify that claim!

If a few individuals are smart enough to disarm traps, are you saying that is not going to put an upward pressure on intelligence? (assuming it's hereditary).

> What use is it for a gorilla to read or have complex language

So intelligence is only relevant to complex language use? And not, for example, food acquisition?

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#132

Post by tempguy9999 »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #50
tsumnia wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they can learn by observing humans, without the humans specifically intending it, then what's so different, or unethical, if it's done with intent? I think this might interfere with some research involving the gorillas. You cannot study their natural behaviors if you are assisting them. Not to say there isn't research teams looking to train gorillas, my point is that may not be THEIR focus. While they cannot con…

Add giving them goggles for when they don't see well. Ear devices for when they don't hear well. A wheelchair for when they can't walk. I'm afraid when Darwin passes by ( other group of gorillas) and the word of the strongest will be law. ( Just thinking out loud, with controversy :) )

> Add giving them goggles for when they don't see well.

see no evil

> Ear devices for when they don't hear well.

hear no evil

> A wheelchair for when they can't walk.

...okay, you lost me there

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#133

Post by tempguy9999 »

ekianjo wrote: post #64
cwkoss wrote: post #55

When will governments start selling licenses to hunt poachers?

Hunt poachers, then sell their organs legally at market price, and then take a cut of the profits. This way the government does not even have to pay for anything. Of course, highly controversial idea, but if you really want to curb down poaching, it might be a good way to fight back with better incentives.

I recall an article on poachers in africa. In that particular case it was down to poverty - I poach or my children go hungry. I've no doubt we'd all do the same.

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#134

Post by tempguy9999 »

AngryData wrote: post #38
magduf wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that poachers could have guns, so even though gorillas are extremely strong, and a gorilla with a knife is a scary prospect close-up, a poacher with a gun wouldn't have much problem killing the gorilla. The solution is simple: give guns to gorillas and teach them to shoot them. Now we'll have gorilla warfare...

Give them javelins and teach them how to use them. It will certainly solve the poaching problem!

Chimps are known to create and use spears but for stabbing rather than throwing " rel="nofollow">https://phys.org/news/2015-04-chimps-senegal-fashion-spears.....

AFAIC they don't seem to understand how to throw, and aren't physically well adapted to do so.

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#135

Post by Bartweiss »

patagonia wrote: post #128

Or how about the video of the orangutan fighting the bulldozer destroying its home? I used to think people just didn’t realize that animals have internal emotional, social, intellectual lives. But I’m now convinced we know and choose to look away. Tragically. https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/8896313/david-attenbor...

At the beginning of Dune, someone differentiates humans from animals like this:

> You've heard of animals chewing off a leg to escape a trap? There's an animal kind of trick. A human would remain in the trap, endure the pain, feigning death that he might kill the trapper and remove a threat to his kind.

The idea is recognizable, at least. It's antelope individually scattering from a cheetah, rather than forming a tight group that wouldn't be attacked a second time. But it's sad, and kind of funny, just how wrong it is to draw that line at 'humans'. Gorillas disarm traps instead of avoiding them. Elephants defend their friends, even across species, and bury their dead. Dolphins proactively kill sharks, and hold injured dolphins - or humans - at the surface to breath. Even octopuses, not usually understood as a social species, display clear theory of mind.

It's not just the endless redefinition of "tool use" that feels like hubris anymore. Just about everything we consider deeply meaningful, emotion and intellect and teaching and even ritual, is not a uniquely human experience.

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#136

Post by toyg »

michaelscott wrote: post #117
disordinary wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And all alpine chalets and cabins in Kea habitated areas have warning signs about leaving windows open with pictures of the share devastation they cause when they get inside. Where I live we have Kaka which are related to Kea. All they do is tear trees to shreds.

This is a problem with baboons in chalet and cabin areas in the southern African bush as well. They're able to get into a window (if not locked) and devastate a cabin in their search for food, they're able to open chip and food packets, unscrew jar lids etc. In their case I think the opposable thumbs are what really come in handy.

I’ve seen south-african monkeys carefully opening the rear-door of tourist cars (as they stopped to take pictures), grabbing some loot, and running away as fast as light. There are actual human thieves who are dumber than that.

Monkeys make me nervous, it’s like I’m looking at drunkards in a pub: probably stronger than me in hand-to-hand combat, only slightly less smart, undoubtedly more vicious, and completely unpredictable to the untrained.

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#137

Post by toyg »

patagonia wrote: post #128

Or how about the video of the orangutan fighting the bulldozer destroying its home? I used to think people just didn’t realize that animals have internal emotional, social, intellectual lives. But I’m now convinced we know and choose to look away. Tragically. https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/8896313/david-attenbor...

We don’t “look away”, we grant large mammals a huge degree of respect. They are just old foes in a war we resoundingly won. Allowing them a degree of parity without restarting the conflict, is just challenging.

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#138

Post by bredren »

hutzlibu wrote: post #112
remcob wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally avoid meat for this and other reasons, but the Kea for sure don't seem to care about animal rights: > The video confirmed what many scientists had long suspected: that the kea uses its powerful, curved beak and claws to rip through the layer of wool and eat the fat from the back of the animal. Though the bird does not directly kill the sheep, death can result from infections or accidents suffered by anima…

Or cats playing with mice, or ants, crows or vultures eating sick animals alive, or seagulls biting bits off of whales ... No, animals are not nice themself. But if we claim, we are higher evolved, we can do different.

Make no mistake, animals are ruthless. Watch a documentary about hippos. What happens when a new bull takes over is messed up.

We aren't simply hunting. We cage and destroy at a scale natural death can't match. There are deals like 6 chicken wings for $2. No thought is given to the conditions these animals are raised into slaughter.

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#139

Post by toss1 »

khc wrote: post #63
toss1 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, hunting poachers should be legal, pricey, and encouraged. Sell licenses to hunt poachers, deputize them, and use the proceeds to improve protection of the wildlife. Obviously only part of the solution, but considering that the poachers, especially of elephants & rhinos are now largely part of organized crime syndicates, totally fair.

What happened to due process?

They are getting more due process than they give their victims, which are also fully sentient, intelligent beings.

As far as I'm concerned, you hunt down a gorilla, elephant or similar with a high powered rifle, trap, or poison their water source, then use a chain saw to hack out their tusk or hand to sell, you've turned in your human-card for good.

At the very least, they've signed up for "Live by the sword, die by the sword". (and they at least have the ability to shoot back at their hunter, more than the elephants/gorillas have)

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#140

Post by Retra »

gerbilly wrote: post #130
patagonia wrote: post #128

Or how about the video of the orangutan fighting the bulldozer destroying its home? I used to think people just didn’t realize that animals have internal emotional, social, intellectual lives. But I’m now convinced we know and choose to look away. Tragically. https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/8896313/david-attenbor...

"Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" You know what bothers me? movies like the lord of the rings trilogy that make us yearn for an imaginary a more magical time. We are living in the end days of that magical time right now. We don't need fantasies about walking/talking trees when there are 'magical' animals we share the planet with right now that we haven't bothered to get to know. Some have already been…

Nobody yearns to live in those imaginary places, they yearn to talk about them and think about them. The real world is far more dangerous and scary than the most treacherous fiction.
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