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Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

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81–90 of 152 posts

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#81

In Aotearoa-New Zealand we set traps for introduced species like stoats, rats, possums, etc. that kill our endangered wildlife that evolved without natural predators. The Kea which are very smart mountain parrots will go and disarm the traps in order to eat the bait. They're smart enough to have figured out how to do this, and are one of just a handful of animals that habitually use tools, but are unfortunately too s…

> unfortunately too smart for their own good because their handiwork means [certain doom]

Reminds me of a certain mammalian species.

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#82
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no wild animal training expert, but surely there's a risk training gorillas could backfire? humans training gorillas leads to gorillas being more trusting and less suspecting of humans, including poachers, or some other unintended consequences.

Or it triggers a cascading increase in intelligence, and they end up taking up arms and conquering us.

In every species except man, the benefits of intelligence are largely limited to a single individual or a small family clan. Without widespread cooperative behavior there can be no evolutionary pressure to push intelligence to our heights. What use is it for a gorilla to read or have complex language if it can't be used to cooperate with a large number of other individuals?

Unfortunately, both Darwinian genetics and game theory tell us that cooperative behavior is exceedingly unlikely to emerge. In fact, there exists no well supported theory that fits the Darwinian genetic model of evolution for how non-kin cooperation could have emerged in the human species, let alone one that's widely accepted or which is supported by evidence. All the existing theories are predicated on the argument that cooperation is beneficial therefore evolutionary would select for cooperation, but neither genes nor evolution have foresight.

On the other hand, it should be abundantly clear that the types of intelligence which benefit the individual or a family clan arise readily in nature. Tool use, teaching, even culture are clearly widespread; they're simply circumscribed by well known genetic counter pressures. Cheating strategies spontaneously emerge and effectively limit the establishment of cooperative behaviors to close kin and, to a lesser extent, non-kin that are genetically incentivized to play along (e.g. mating partners or prospective mating partners), but only to the extent that have the incentive to play along. The two species of mammals which exhibit the greatest degree of systematic social cooperation (i.e. the ones closest to humans in terms of eusociality, though still not remotely comparable) are bonobos and mole-rats. Predictably, those groups are predominately composed of cooperating genetic sisters, so in fact their behavior is more analogous to bees and ants than to humans in terms of how and why eusociality exists.

It follows that the emergence of non-kin cooperative behavior likely preceded our intelligence. This is the bottleneck--not thumbs or speech or whatever phenotype du jure, including complex intelligence. None of this stuff stands up to scrutiny. All the evidence and theory clearly points to cooperative social behavior, for which there's little reason to believe was predicated on some simple phenotype. If only we knew how we passed through that evolutionary bottleneck....

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#83
post #81

In Aotearoa-New Zealand we set traps for introduced species like stoats, rats, possums, etc. that kill our endangered wildlife that evolved without natural predators. The Kea which are very smart mountain parrots will go and disarm the traps in order to eat the bait. They're smart enough to have figured out how to do this, and are one of just a handful of animals that habitually use tools, but are unfortunately too s…

> unfortunately too smart for their own good because their handiwork means [certain doom] Reminds me of a certain mammalian species.

Almost like this trait might be inherent in all mammals. Or does it go even higher? All animals? All life? Evolve intelligence, begin building your doom?

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#84

In Aotearoa-New Zealand we set traps for introduced species like stoats, rats, possums, etc. that kill our endangered wildlife that evolved without natural predators. The Kea which are very smart mountain parrots will go and disarm the traps in order to eat the bait. They're smart enough to have figured out how to do this, and are one of just a handful of animals that habitually use tools, but are unfortunately too s…

How does their handiwork make them targets?

Stoats, rats, and posums are introduced invasive predator species in New Zealand, which prey on native birds such as parrots.

By disabling traps, the parrots increase their predator population.

A classic case of solving for a net-harmful local optimum.

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#85
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they can learn by observing humans, without the humans specifically intending it, then what's so different, or unethical, if it's done with intent? I think this might interfere with some research involving the gorillas. You cannot study their natural behaviors if you are assisting them. Not to say there isn't research teams looking to train gorillas, my point is that may not be THEIR focus. While they cannot con…

It's a lot harder to study them if they're dead. I'm heartily in favor of assisting them to the extent they want to learn, it's possible that the more effort we make to communicate the more we'll learn ourselves. Also, if they're capable of learning then they're sapient by definition which means we have some moral obligations to them rather than being disinterested observers, because it's our species that is trying t…

Training them to disarm traps could cause more harm than good. Training them to avoid traps would maybe be better. If poachers learn that their prey are hanging around the traps all day disarming them they become lures. We also don't want an arms race between poachers and trained disarmers because the poachers are at a massive advantage. Once they know a significant number of their traps will be disarmed they will just develop traps that are more difficult to disarm or even traps that hurt the animal attempting to disarm them at which point we've trained Gorillas to walk right into their traps.

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#86
post #63
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, hunting poachers should be legal, pricey, and encouraged. Sell licenses to hunt poachers, deputize them, and use the proceeds to improve protection of the wildlife. Obviously only part of the solution, but considering that the poachers, especially of elephants & rhinos are now largely part of organized crime syndicates, totally fair.

What happened to due process?

Hunting licenses constitute due process, no?

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#87

In Aotearoa-New Zealand we set traps for introduced species like stoats, rats, possums, etc. that kill our endangered wildlife that evolved without natural predators. The Kea which are very smart mountain parrots will go and disarm the traps in order to eat the bait. They're smart enough to have figured out how to do this, and are one of just a handful of animals that habitually use tools, but are unfortunately too s…

Clearly the next step is to somehow communicate with the Kea.

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#88
post #83
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unfortunately too smart for their own good because their handiwork means [certain doom] Reminds me of a certain mammalian species.

Almost like this trait might be inherent in all mammals. Or does it go even higher? All animals? All life? Evolve intelligence, begin building your doom?

Kea are birds.

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#89

In Aotearoa-New Zealand we set traps for introduced species like stoats, rats, possums, etc. that kill our endangered wildlife that evolved without natural predators. The Kea which are very smart mountain parrots will go and disarm the traps in order to eat the bait. They're smart enough to have figured out how to do this, and are one of just a handful of animals that habitually use tools, but are unfortunately too s…

What’s the bait? Interesting that either the Kea or their predators are omnivorous enough that would happen.

Re: Gorilla Youngsters Seen Dismantling Poachers’ Traps (2012)

#90

In Aotearoa-New Zealand we set traps for introduced species like stoats, rats, possums, etc. that kill our endangered wildlife that evolved without natural predators. The Kea which are very smart mountain parrots will go and disarm the traps in order to eat the bait. They're smart enough to have figured out how to do this, and are one of just a handful of animals that habitually use tools, but are unfortunately too s…

This smartness and their very consciousness and ability to suffer is what makes industrialized meat production so ruthless.
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