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macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

developer.apple.com

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Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#271

Post by Traster »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #192

I think this is great, but at the same time, auto-installing homebrew ought to be an option (perhaps enabled by default) when installing the “XCode command line tools”. Better yet, offer a “developer setup” app that sets up the command line tools, homebrew, iTerm2, updated bash/zsh, and more. Apple would do best to pave the cow paths developers have already worn into macOS, especially when it comes to command line ut…

I think the second you start auto-favouring one particular tool you're in trouble. Why iTerm2? Why not Alacritty? iTerm2 is more popular now, but 5 years down the line when someone else has come up with a iTerm2 replacement how is Apple meant to decide to switch? Where does Apple draw the line on which tools to add and which to leave out?

It sounds like what you're really asking for is something like Ninite for mac, which I think frankly is safer to stay as a 3rd party thing, rather than Apple getting super-involved in choices that are going to be very user taste specific.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#272

Post by Traster »

reid wrote: post #268

Sounds like these runtimes will still be available via a separate download, similar to how Git and other CLI tools download when you first try to use them. Not a big deal. Makes it easier for folks who want newer versions and avoid any strange behavior with coexisting with the built-in runtimes.

Yeah, one of my pet peeves is logging in to a new system and being like "Which version of Python am I going to have to try and avoid invoking today".

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#273

Post by tannhaeuser »

ken wrote: post #76

Not surprising at all. It's become clear that what they've been doing with iOS all along is bootstrapping a new operating system. They started with Unix, not because Unix was optimal for what they wanted to do, but it's what they had and it worked well enough. Copland and Taligent and the rest failed because of Second-System Effect, which Apple was smart enough to avoid. (As RMS wrote in 1983, "Unix is not my ideal s…

I don't see this anti-Unix stance at all in what Apple is doing here. The "P"-languages that shall not be named were never part of Unix/POSIX, and arguably violate Unix principles in that they want to establish a language-centric ecosystem when the Unix userland is about small, language-agnostic programs working together.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#274

Post by Fnoord »

thiht wrote: post #242
mschuster91 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is unusable in multi-user environments as it installs packages as your "ordinary" user instead of root.

Why do I care since my desktop computer is not multi-user? Also I configured Homebrew to install it's packages to ~/Applications, problem solved?

Basically it means if someone has user access on a Mac with Homebrew (with default settings), they also have root. So a remote hole in, say, Safari, means your entire system is compromised.

(That said, I actually use Homebrew.)

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#275

Post by willyt »

bnt wrote: post #215
oarsinsync wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple hasn't been great at encouraging programming among kids You should check out what they’ve been doing for years with Swift Playgrounds on the iPad

But that's teaching a new generation of coders a set of tools designed only for Apple. Ruby (Python etc) are open and easily available on other platforms, Swift may be in the future but it isn't now.

Swift is open and available on other platforms. I can install it on a raspberry pi if I want.

https://swiftreviewer.com/2018/12/21/swift-programming-on-ra...

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#276

Post by underwater »

paulcarroty wrote: post #214
nailer wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use / on Windows in node perfectly, and Windows node now installs required devtools for native modules at the end of the process. It's pretty easy these days.

You can use it, yep, but devtools aren't enough. You'll meet a lot of issues sooner or later. Windows is second-class citizen for Node, Linux or macOS are much better - just share my experience.

Being a second class citizens is very different from being a nightmare. I've been able to build some fairly complex apps (TypeScript, Next.js, Relay, SQLite, Express) without running into any issues at all, and if I do hit a roadblock I know I can bail out to WSL or a VM.

The experience isn't as nice as macOS, but it's not terrible by any stretch.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#277

Post by peterburkimsher »

indigo747 wrote: post #177
Gaelan wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re overthinking this. The vast majority of Ruby/Python programmers have been installing their own copies themselves, because Apple was pretty slow in updating them (Ruby is usually a few minor releases behind, Python is still 2.7 IIRC). People will just keep doing that, and nothing will change. They may or may not be moving off Unix, but this isn’t evidence of that.

As a counter-anecdote, the built in Ruby interpreter in Mac OS X Tiger was the way I learned to program and how I got interested in programming. I don't think a bare Ruby interpreter is the best way to get into programming, but Apple hasn't been great at encouraging programming among kids. As a kid, its development tools were totally baffling, where Ruby was much easier to understand.

I had the opposite experience with AppleScript - the development tool (Script Editor) was simple enough for me to understand that it was the way I taught myself to program when I was 13.

(OK, I learned Logo in school when I was 7, but programming became way more interesting when I discovered AppleScript's APIs to control all the programs on my Mac).

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#278

Post by simonh »

ken wrote: post #76

Not surprising at all. It's become clear that what they've been doing with iOS all along is bootstrapping a new operating system. They started with Unix, not because Unix was optimal for what they wanted to do, but it's what they had and it worked well enough. Copland and Taligent and the rest failed because of Second-System Effect, which Apple was smart enough to avoid. (As RMS wrote in 1983, "Unix is not my ideal s…

Would you say that RedHat doing almost the exact same thing[1] means they are moving away from being Unix-like as well? This is just an idea who's time has come.

You might be right about OSX and it's derivatives moving away from being so unix-like, but by itself this is just sensible housekeeping they would have to do at some point anyway. It's just not reasonable to expect them to include and maintain deprecated language runtimes indefinitely.

[1]https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2019/05/07/what-no-python...

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#279

Post by coldtea »

indigo747 wrote: post #177
Gaelan wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re overthinking this. The vast majority of Ruby/Python programmers have been installing their own copies themselves, because Apple was pretty slow in updating them (Ruby is usually a few minor releases behind, Python is still 2.7 IIRC). People will just keep doing that, and nothing will change. They may or may not be moving off Unix, but this isn’t evidence of that.

As a counter-anecdote, the built in Ruby interpreter in Mac OS X Tiger was the way I learned to program and how I got interested in programming. I don't think a bare Ruby interpreter is the best way to get into programming, but Apple hasn't been great at encouraging programming among kids. As a kid, its development tools were totally baffling, where Ruby was much easier to understand.

>As a counter-anecdote, the built in Ruby interpreter in Mac OS X Tiger was the way I learned to program and how I got interested in programming

And you think a one-click download and install of Ruby would have prevented that?

Not to mention Apple also has Swift, and Swift Playgrounds and so on for kids these days.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#280

Post by zmmmmm »

saagarjha wrote: post #167
zmmmmm wrote: post #143

How deep you are willing to go with conspiracy theories ... If one was planning to kill off all non-approved software on an OS, what would you do first? Remove all the runtimes that can execute unapproved software of course. Then you are free to impose signing as a requirement for applications and a mandatory app store, and reap the 30% rent tax forever more. Is Apple doing that? Of course, we can't tell. There are l…

It is trivial to package a scripting runtime with an App Store application; so trivial, in fact, that a number of apps for iOS do this already.

That doesn't really contradict anything above. It still remains true that if they were planning on removing ability to run unapproved applications from OSX, the first step would be to take out the ability to do that which is installed by default. Restricting what App Store applications can do would come later (and be controlled by policy rather than technical limitations).
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