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macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

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Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#241

Post by em500 »

jasonkester wrote: post #207
photojosh wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good grief. What's wrong with going to www.python.org/downloads/ and clicking the big button at the top that says "Download the latest version for Mac OS X"? If you can't even download an installer and run it, then yeah, maybe not quite ready for programming either. Please forgive my snark, but this would be exactly my thought process as a reasonably competent computer user who wanted to learn Python.

He’s right though. When I was six years old, learning to program involved turning on the computer and typing 10 print “hello” run That’s what I want for my kids. And there’s nothing even remotely like it in today’s world.

Open Terminal

    $ echo "hello"
seems pretty much the same to me.

Even on Windows you can open the browser console and do

    > console.log("hello")
Just for teaching basic prints, variables, loops and functions, terminal bash on macOS/Linux or Javascript console work just as well as Commodore 64 BASIC.

The problem is not that the environment is not available or setup is too difficult. The problem is that there's now way more competition from other shinies readily available (web, apps, games, videos). Even if you boot your home PC straight into a terminal, as soon as the kids find the way to a web browser it's game over. Even on 1980s home micros, if the kids got access to (pirated) games, practically none would volunterily keep on programming BASIC.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#242

Post by thiht »

mschuster91 wrote: post #230
nicky0 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain further why you think Homebrew should not be used?

Because it is unusable in multi-user environments as it installs packages as your "ordinary" user instead of root.

Why do I care since my desktop computer is not multi-user? Also I configured Homebrew to install it's packages to ~/Applications, problem solved?

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#244

Post by wyclif »

kccqzy wrote: post #233
AlexeyBrin wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What newbie will start with Python 2.7 at this point in time? Most books and tutorials are updated for Python 3. The default Python 2.7 interpreter from macOS is useless for newbies, it does more harm than good by confusing them.

The young, bored but smart kid in an elementary or middle school tinkering with her computer and finding something to do. She doesn't need a book or a tutorial to tell her the "right" way. She experiments, only guided by her curiosity.

The point is that Python 2.7x is being EOL'd now. The Python that person will likely encounter in the very near future will be Python3.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#245

Post by saagarjha »

sametmax wrote: post #239
saagarjha wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Package managers will keep your Python up-to-date automatically.

Sure but it's very rare to update python on the desktop (not on the server). Installing a new version in parallel is common, but once you get a 3.x rolling, you seldom have the need for a 3.x.y unless you encounter a bug or are very security conscious. On the other hand, installing xcode is really a pain.

I try to keep the version of Python my personal computer is using up-to-date; I don't think this is a particularly uncommon thing?

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#246

Post by frou_dh »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #192

I think this is great, but at the same time, auto-installing homebrew ought to be an option (perhaps enabled by default) when installing the “XCode command line tools”. Better yet, offer a “developer setup” app that sets up the command line tools, homebrew, iTerm2, updated bash/zsh, and more. Apple would do best to pave the cow paths developers have already worn into macOS, especially when it comes to command line ut…

I reject the persistent meme that iTerm2 is somehow essential.

Apple do a great job with the builtin Terminal.app

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#247

Post by Fnoord »

sciencerobot wrote: post #200
indigo747 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counter-anecdote, the built in Ruby interpreter in Mac OS X Tiger was the way I learned to program and how I got interested in programming. I don't think a bare Ruby interpreter is the best way to get into programming, but Apple hasn't been great at encouraging programming among kids. As a kid, its development tools were totally baffling, where Ruby was much easier to understand.

One of the things that drew me to Macs as I started to learn programming in '05 was that I could simply open any macbook and type python/ruby/perl and write some code.

Different time. Now you got Homebrew

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#248

Post by ash_gti »

bnt wrote: post #215
oarsinsync wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple hasn't been great at encouraging programming among kids You should check out what they’ve been doing for years with Swift Playgrounds on the iPad

But that's teaching a new generation of coders a set of tools designed only for Apple. Ruby (Python etc) are open and easily available on other platforms, Swift may be in the future but it isn't now.

How about using a web browser with JavaScript?

Maybe not the best language for someone new but its widely available.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#249

Post by x0x0 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #70
AlexeyBrin wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK, macOS comes with Python 2.7 and without pip. For any serious, modern , Python development you need to install Python 3 yourself.

Again the word "serious" is there telling me people are absolutely aloof to the kinds of new developers there are and what it's like to be a non programmer.

otoh, helping people start by just typing python is great!

otoh, pointing people towards messing with system python... well, it's a trap. And they will get burned, and it will be a nightmare to straighten out.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#250

Post by xapata »

wyclif wrote: post #240
dcosson wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's honestly terrible for newbies. If they try to use it, there's no pip included. So then they easy_install all their libraries which installs things into different places than most python devs will be used to. Or they easy_install pip first. But even still, everything is installing to system paths, so when they try to install things it fails with permission errors. They find a stack overflow post that says just "s…

you can always brew uninstall and reinstall later if you need a different version That is the wrong way to do it. Just install pyenv/pipenv to manage different Python versions. It's dead simple to maintain system Python, Python 2.7x, and Python3.7.3 that way.

Or conda, which I prefer to pipenv + pyenv.
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