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macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

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Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#221

Post by linguae »

wahern wrote: post #123
zapzupnz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realise that the reason these things are being stripped out is because macOS includes hideously old versions for backwards compatibility with older software that depended on them, right? There is no real loss here; no sane users would use the built-in versions due to their age. It has been preferable to download and install newer versions for a long time, this changes nothing. And if it's fine to spend a tiny…

> And if it's fine to spend a tiny amount of effort to install WSL or Cygwin on Windows Well, plenty of people use macOS precisely because it was like a more consistent Linux out-of-the-box. Apple will lose a ton of mindshare; indeed, they are losing a ton of mindshare. They've been slowly deprecating things for years, now, and leaving the rest to rot, and open source developers are increasingly drifting away. About…

I personally believe that the reason why Apple is losing mindshare among some software developers, particularly in Silicon Valley and in academia, has less to do with particular choices regarding macOS and has more to do with Apple's hardware situation, particularly regarding the keyboards on Apple's recent laptops. The keyboard situation has led some developers to consider alternatives to the MacBook Pro, which often necessitates needing to consider non-Mac alternatives. PC manufacturers have been offering some really compelling alternatives to the MacBook Pro such as the Microsoft Surface line of tablets, the Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon, and the Dell XPS 13 and 15, among other computers. Those frustrated with Apple's long delays in releasing updated Mac Mini and Mac Pro models have also considered switching to PCs, if they haven't already.

On top of this, the introduction of WSL in Windows 10 has made Windows a compelling option for many people who use macOS as a Unix that doesn't have the driver issues of Linux/*BSD and happens to support Microsoft Office, Adobe Creative Suite, and other commercial software packages. Provided that they are not hardcore Unix systems programmers, if they want a Unix-like userland with support for Microsoft Office and Adobe Creative Suite, why not try WSL? Despite my preference for macOS, I've used WSL on my work-issued computer as well as on my personal Dell XPS 15, and I must say, I'm very impressed with it. No more having to mess around with PuTTY or with virtual machines to do Unix work on Windows. While I am personally more productive in macOS than in Windows even with WSL, I know quite a few former Mac users who are very happy with Windows 10, thanks to WSL.

Now, software engineers who primarily work with Apple frameworks and technologies probably won't be satisfied with Windows. But software engineers who use macOS primarily as a convenient Unix with support for commercial software packages might want to give Windows 10 and WSL a try. Now, personally I'm still turned off by certain lingering "Windowsisms" (insert gripes about telemetry, ads, mandatory updates, and the UI here), but for many people Windows 10 is now a compelling alternative to the Mac.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#222

Post by mproud »

bla3 wrote: post #58

I don't understand why everyone is so excited about this. I don't like using brew. I use a Mac because things just work. It was annoying that the system versions were old, but most of the time they were still workable. To me, this is another (admittedly small) thing I liked about the Mac that's going away.

You don't have to use brew. And if you aren’t a developer making software, you don’t need to do anything.

If you are a developer, there are many ways to get the software you need for development. Apple is saying they’re just not going to provide it on client machines by default — which is probably fine because honestly, more often what happens is the version Apple has on the machine is old or missing newer parts anyway.

I guess you could argue Apple should make their own package manager, but they just don’t want to spend the time and energy on that when they want to focus on Mac and iOS software rather than UNIX software.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#223

Post by cynwoody »

ardy42 wrote: post #181
ken wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But macOS uses '/' as a directory separator already. They're not going to arbitrarily change trivia like that -- at least, not short of killing the concept of a filesystem altogether. (True, if anyone was going to do that, Apple would, but APFS is brand new. That's not going anywhere.) Apple isn't changing things just for the sake of change. They're removing 1970's-isms where they hold back the platform. Languages li…

> But macOS uses '/' as a directory separator already. IIRC, HFS actually uses a ':'.

Mac OS versions prior to OS X used ':'.

Mac OS X, initially released on 24 March 2001, uses '/', like other Unix-derived systems.

Also, like other unices, OS X uses '\n' as the line ending. Prior Mac OSs used '\r' as the line ending. Windows uses '\r\n'.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#224

Post by ioquatix »

crazygringo wrote: post #133
fooblitzky_bias wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're joking, right? Brew is NOT the de-facto package manager, macoports is. Learn what "de-facto" means. Brew is a fucking trainwreck that shits all over "/" and has a tendency to break existing critical features while failing to stay up to date. I wouldn't touch it again with a 10 foot pole, and actively discourage people from using it.

Besides your tone and language being unwelcome here... you're just factually wrong. Comparing in Google Trends, it's very clear brew is the "de facto" package manager, and has been for years: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge...

Talking about factually wrong...

If you look at the full picture: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=%2Fm%2F0...

"DarwinPorts" was originally released in 2002. You can see it trending and then the name change which occurred in 2006. It's been on a downward trend ever since.

Even thought Homebrew was released in 2009, it trends relatively constant for the entire dataset. In fact, from 2009 onward, you see a downward trend and then a slight upward trend. So, I'd say, Google is having trouble differentiating "Homebrew" as a drink and Homebrew the package manager.

Now, my personal opinion on the matter:

I used both Fink and MacPorts extensively since around ~2002. I eventually moved to MacPorts because it had better support for Latex at the time.

MacPorts is solid and follows UNIX philosophy in its design. I've been using it for almost 15 years and in that time I've had almost zero issues with either available packages or installation bugs. It's very reliable.

I did try Homebrew. Once I realised it installs user-owned files into `/usr/local`, I tossed it. It's simply broken by design. For more details, e.g. https://applehelpwriter.com/2018/03/21/how-homebrew-invites-...

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#225

Post by Godel_unicode »

jodrellblank wrote: post #211
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree overall, but I do think it's a little sad that you can no longer open a Terminal and start writing Python. I think this legitimately matters in terms of increasing overall tech and programming literacy. Mind, there's still a command line and shell built-in, which I consider far more important.

You can open https://repl.it/languages/python3 and start writing Python.

with open("~/Documents/important.csv", "r") as f: f.read()

No? Oh well, I guess programming is hard, IT was right. Ok, back to excel...

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#227

Post by mschuster91 »

reikonomusha wrote: post #202
jarcane wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homebrew is not the only package provider for MacOS.

Would Apple be in the wrong simply being opinionated about using Homebrew?

Yes, because Homebrew's practice of installing packages runs contrary to the requirements of a multi-user system.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#228

Post by csomar »

hasahmed wrote: post #205
reikonomusha wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would Apple be in the wrong simply being opinionated about using Homebrew?

Yes

I'm not sure why you are getting downvoted. I'd not like it if Apple will opinion-ate and make any package manager a default.

Package managers are for software developers. They are comfortable installing them on their own.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#229

Post by rincebrain »

saagarjha wrote: post #153
kn0where wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, actually trying to use MacPorts when one is accustomed to package managers like apt is an exercise in extreme patience.

Interestingly, I feel the opposite: Homebrew acts much more like a binary distribution service than a package manager.

Those don't seem to be opposing things - you expect your package distribution tool to be effectively curl and tarballs, the other person expects more complex behavior options and dislikes the absence of them.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#230

Post by mschuster91 »

nicky0 wrote: post #196
rurban wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you are technicly right. Homebrew is a train wreck and should not be used. But people are using Windows also, they don't use the proper tools, like ports. Unfortunately it is the defacto packager. But still, people should not put out Homebrew installation recipes, and prefer macports instead. At least you can seperate the newbies from the experienced immidiately. If it's a Homebrew package only, avoid.

Can you explain further why you think Homebrew should not be used?

Because it is unusable in multi-user environments as it installs packages as your "ordinary" user instead of root.
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