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Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

nytimes.com

81–90 of 170 posts

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#81
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of redundant administrators and have never-ending construction, thereby justifying higher tuitions as "operating costs". Is there any evidence of non-profit universities doing that? Here's the best expenditure data I have from the Department of Education. Per-student real expenditures are up about 20% over 17 years. Th…

The data you linked to is for private non-profit universities. At least in the state I went to public university at, its not so much that per-student expenses went up (though they did to some degree), its that the State started funding a far lower percentage of costs, leaving the student (and the student's ability to take loans) to pay for a larger share.

> funding a far lower percentage of costs

Yes, in the past few decdes there is much less of a sense that having an educated population is a common good, and much more of a sense that it is an individual investment.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#83
post #25

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train? Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of…

This is why I'm so skeptical of the "free college" rhetoric from Elizabeth Warren and the like... The underlying problem is the giant wealth transfer to colleges, and the progressive fixes seem to be to transfer even more wealth to them.

> This is why I'm so skeptical of the "free college" rhetoric

I assume by "this" you are refering to the OP's statement that "This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively."

One of the idea's behind free public college is to apply market pressure to private college's, so that they have to price their programs competitively. In a risk free debt financed system, prices will rise, the same dynamic happens for both medical care and real estate.

I am not sure on what basis you think this kind of system would make the problems worse.

Also I am curious, are you in favor of abolishing public high school? What part of your argument against free college does not apply to free high schools? One of the many talking points behind the free college proposal is that in today's job market, a college degree has the some utility that a high school degree used to have.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#84
post #50

I went back for my masters in CS after being a civil engineer for two years and learning cs my free time. These articles panning formal education don't fully grasp how difficult it is to get your foot in the door as a non-cs person whose also working full time. I also wanted to do something more technical than just web dev, which most career changers seem to land up in. Being a grad student opened a lot of doors into…

What kind of role are you in now? I'm curious as I work with a lot of embedded devs but see that most of the salary money is flowing towards AI (very unclear what many of these roles actually are) and its less sexy but more concrete counterpart of cloud devops

The embedded work was just for an internship at Nokia/Bell Labs. I work at the place where I did my second internship; started doing ML engineering then pivoted to more data engineering work.

You're right about embedded though. Most telecom hardware is a race to the bottom and there were a lot of layoffs at Nokia when I was there.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#85
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or to do exactly as the OP said: this is what we’ll pay per student.

School vouchers. Still bad for college: why give free money to the richest of society?

Because they will stay in our country and help us develop the most productive economy on earth. imo.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#86
post #50

I went back for my masters in CS after being a civil engineer for two years and learning cs my free time. These articles panning formal education don't fully grasp how difficult it is to get your foot in the door as a non-cs person whose also working full time. I also wanted to do something more technical than just web dev, which most career changers seem to land up in. Being a grad student opened a lot of doors into…

From the article:

> Master’s degrees in fields like computer engineering, education, English, history and math seem to have fewer outlier programs and lower borrowing amounts over all. It’s the less mainstream programs, where vague promises of a lucrative career are easier to make, that seem to encourage irrationally large debt.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#87
post #25

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train? Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of…

"Lessons from Chile’s transition to free college":

https://www.brookings.edu/research/lessons-from-chiles-trans...

HN discussion when it was introduced four years ago:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9514404

An essay by By Andreas Schleicher, Deputy Director for Education and Special Advisor on Education Policy to the Secretary- General, OECD from 2013 that looks at free higher education and concludes that a combination of public/private financing seems best:

http://www.oecd.org/forum/education-for-all.htm

OECD data show that tertiary education creates large social benefits in the form of economic growth, social cohesion and citizenship values that justify public investment. Equally, in light of the very significant–and growing–private benefits of tertiary qualifications, individual graduates should be expected to bear some of the cost, too. The case for costsharing is strongest when tight public budgets would otherwise lead to cuts in the number of tertiary students, a decline in the quality of instruction, or a decrease in the resources available to support disadvantaged students. Cost-sharing allows systems to continue to expand with no apparent sacrifice of instructional quality, and makes institutions more responsive to student needs. Institutions also become less reliant on taxpayers’ money and are able, within certain limits, to raise their own funds. The savings from these kinds of arrangements can be used to broaden access to tertiary education by expanding student support systems.

All things in moderation, however. Countries that rely solely on the market to determine the cost of higher education, such as the United States, often see tuition fees rise to such stratospheric levels that higher education becomes inaccessible to many prospective students. And that, in turn, undermines these countries’ own intentions of raising the level of their populations’ educational attainment. Thus, there is a case to be made for fee-stabilisation policies that contain costs.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#88
post #87
post #25

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train? Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of…

"Lessons from Chile’s transition to free college": https://www.brookings.edu/research/lessons-from-chiles-trans... HN discussion when it was introduced four years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9514404 An essay by By Andreas Schleicher, Deputy Director for Education and Special Advisor on Education Policy to the Secretary- General, OECD from 2013 that looks at free higher education and concludes that a com…

> Countries that rely solely on the market to determine the cost of higher education, such as the United States,

This essay ends with a correlation but not causation conclusion. It is not the free market that makes private colleges expensive in the US.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#89
post #80
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data you linked to is for private non-profit universities. At least in the state I went to public university at, its not so much that per-student expenses went up (though they did to some degree), its that the State started funding a far lower percentage of costs, leaving the student (and the student's ability to take loans) to pay for a larger share.

This is a significantly underappreciated cause of the student debt crisis. People love to harp on overpaid or unneeded administrators and buildings but they are largely unaware of how much state budget cuts have contributed to rising tuition. My public alma mater gets well under 10% of their funding from the state at this point.

Then what's the explanation for the thousands of private non-profit universities who have never received state funding?
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