Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees • Hacker News Board

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#71

Post by madengr » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:47 PM UTC

misiti3780 wrote: post #67

madengr wrote: post #35

Who the hell pays for an MS? At least back when I was in engineering grad school, everyone was covered by RA or TA grants, in addition to being paid by those. Of course in-state tuition at KU in 1996 was under $100/credit-hour, so if I did pay, those 9 credits/semester would be under $1k total.

or your company pays, which is how i got an MS in applied math.

That’s a double edged sword. The schools will charge exorbitant tuition if they know employers are paying for it. Did your employer reimburse you, or was it a direct payment? I took several classes after my MSEE, and employer reimbursed, with the downside that it was taxable.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#72

Post by Ocerge » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:47 PM UTC

permatech wrote: post #37

In engineering the quip was always "if you're paying for graduate school you're doing it wrong" ... to even get in the door for most hardware jobs fresh out of school you need a MS. A PhD may be preferred, and will start with a higher salary -- but put in ~5yrs instead of 2. As long as the tuition is covered and you make money as a TA or RA in a low-cost of living area you should come out ahead in the engineering fie…

I did undergrad research in school (CS, moved on to industry after I got my BS) and I heard the same thing; all of the grad students I worked with (Masters as well as PhDs) were paid by grants and the like. I went to a large state university that was pretty good at CS but not elite, yet all the people I worked with managed to not go into debt to get their advanced degrees. It's anecdotal I know, but I thought it was a given to never go into debt as a CS/engineering grad student if you can help it.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#73

Post by conanbatt » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:48 PM UTC

dd36 wrote: post #34

freewilly1040 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I'm so skeptical of the "free college" rhetoric from Elizabeth Warren and the like... The underlying problem is the giant wealth transfer to colleges, and the progressive fixes seem to be to transfer even more wealth to them.

Or to do exactly as the OP said: this is what we’ll pay per student.

School vouchers.

Still bad for college: why give free money to the richest of society?

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#74

Post by partiallypro » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:50 PM UTC

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #42

freewilly1040 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I'm so skeptical of the "free college" rhetoric from Elizabeth Warren and the like... The underlying problem is the giant wealth transfer to colleges, and the progressive fixes seem to be to transfer even more wealth to them.

Well when it’s free & the gov pays, they’ll make sure their budget is tight.

I can't tell if you meant for this to be sarcastic or not.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#75

Post by Shivetya » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:55 PM UTC

freewilly1040 wrote: post #30

ghobs91 wrote: post #25

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train? Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of…

This is why I'm so skeptical of the "free college" rhetoric from Elizabeth Warren and the like... The underlying problem is the giant wealth transfer to colleges, and the progressive fixes seem to be to transfer even more wealth to them.

if they want government to pay for college then government should decide what is worthy of being paid for and how much.

after all that is the attitude with regards to medical care.

However I feel a better solution is for the government to still do it as loans but set the rates and required classes for each degree type. simply put there are valueless degree programs out there which only enrich the schools. Colleges would still trip over themselves to offer class and degree programs to fit into these restrictions, those that don't could rely on the private market, endowments, and scholarship programs.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#76

Post by Elv13 » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

ngngngng wrote: post #62

jimmaswell wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free college works just fine elsewhere.

Yes, but do other places have the complication of having to replace systems that are sucking billions of dollars out of students to line the pockets of university presidents? This is what makes me skeptical. A solution in the United States for our education, healthcare, or other problems has to involve removing the leeches from the system. But political bribery is legal in the US, and the leeches have more than enoug…

Canada did switch from "for profit" health care to universal one in the 60's. Of course the doctors were furious, but it worked, eventually. Same thing for electricity in Quebec in the 40's. Same thing from prying the education system out of the church hands in the 60's.

In all the case of electricity, it is hugely profitable for the government and used to balance the budget. I went to university and turned a good profit working part time as a programmer (while paying everything and having an apartment). My University had a balanced budget too and grew over 50% since I graduated. Hospitals are as good as anywhere else. They spend billions building them and replace the older facility as they become obsolete. Yet the cost are totally under control.

Public infrastructure work as long as the bureaucracy is kept in check and corruption is managed properly. Inefficiencies and corruption is unavoidable, but at least the slippery slope of "on purpose" waste like US Universities is avoided.

edit: typo

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#77

Post by ambicapter » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 7:04 PM UTC

zamfi wrote: post #64

ghobs91 wrote: post #25

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train? Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of…

> The dept of education needs to treat universities the same way Medicaid treats healthcare providers. Determine what it actually costs per student per year to run a university, and tell the schools "Accept $x or shove off". If they're going to benefit from gov backed loans, they should play by the govs rules. This sounds appealing, but healthcare and education are different in some fundamental ways. People (generall…

> But people do choose to attend Masters degree programs -- they aren't forced to by circumstances outside their own control.

Really? You don't think the climbing housing and living prices and job hiring requirements have anything to do with more people pursuing a Master's degree?

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#78

Post by tzs » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

ghobs91 wrote: post #25

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train? Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of…

What's your evidence that government backed loans have anything to do with this? I haven't been able to find much historical tuition data, but what little I have found (e.g., Stanford going back about 100 years) shows a pretty steady tuition increase over time, at a rate quite a bit above the inflation rate of the time. This was happening before government backed loans became available, and continued happening about the same after they became available.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#79

Post by djakjxnanjak » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

throwayEngineer wrote: post #43

resoluteteeth wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A masters degree doesn't pay in dollars, but experience that can set you apart in the future. Surely "experience that can set you apart in the future" can be captured in calculations of lifetime earnings?

Go ahead then. My website is unprofitable but it's a conversation piece. Did my website get me a 6 figure job or my undergrad in engineering?

You may be able to answer the questions with a study, although it will be tough to pick all right variables to control for.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#80

Post by telchar » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 7:19 PM UTC

ac29 wrote: post #70

secabeen wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of redundant administrators and have never-ending construction, thereby justifying higher tuitions as "operating costs". Is there any evidence of non-profit universities doing that? Here's the best expenditure data I have from the Department of Education. Per-student real expenditures are up about 20% over 17 years. Th…

The data you linked to is for private non-profit universities. At least in the state I went to public university at, its not so much that per-student expenses went up (though they did to some degree), its that the State started funding a far lower percentage of costs, leaving the student (and the student's ability to take loans) to pay for a larger share.

This is a significantly underappreciated cause of the student debt crisis. People love to harp on overpaid or unneeded administrators and buildings but they are largely unaware of how much state budget cuts have contributed to rising tuition. My public alma mater gets well under 10% of their funding from the state at this point.