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Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

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Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#281

Post by diveanon »

PostOnce wrote: post #280
diveanon wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the losses far, FAR outweigh the gains" I disagree and think the topic should be open to public debate. Would I trust the US or China to implement a system like this fairly? No. However, in a country with a functional and impartial judicial system I think it has the potential to save many lives and redefine the criminal justice system into something that focuses on preventing crime and treating mental illness instea…

So your policy is in effect "Let us oppress the many to protect the few." Alright, then.

As I said in my previous comment, it's only oppression when implemented as such.

Technology is a tool, the one who wields it bears the moral responsibility to use it correctly.

Address the root causes of systemic oppression in your country and systems like this have potential to do tremendous good.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#282

Post by PostOnce »

diveanon wrote: post #281
PostOnce wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your policy is in effect "Let us oppress the many to protect the few." Alright, then.

As I said in my previous comment, it's only oppression when implemented as such. Technology is a tool, the one who wields it bears the moral responsibility to use it correctly. Address the root causes of systemic oppression in your country and systems like this have potential to do tremendous good.

This is like tying up a zombie and hoping it doesn't get loose. Well, as long as the handcuffs are secure "we'll be fine!". It always bites you in the end. Power corrupts, remember? Best to limit it.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#283

Post by tempguy9999 »

jammygit wrote: post #272
tempguy9999 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't do a very good job here, and my last line really should have been omitted. I agree with your original post, and this one too (will upvote both) but I am really wary of the potential for abuse that trying to help people become 'better' people can become. A really ugly actual example from about 1969: "Because homosexuality has been considered an endemic and deep-rooted condition since times of antiquity, hopes…

Alberta used to perform forced sterilization upon people with physical and mental disabilities. I don’t want the government going near people for their own good https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/alberta-apologizes-for-forced...

I don't agree. Your absolute statement of denial is to me as dangerous as an absolute endorsement of gov't involvement.

Read this " rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/may/11/nathan-filer-s...

Extract, slightly edited:

" A colleague of mine explained his options, such as they were. But that’s the bit that stayed with me. "Do I have to beg you? [he had asked]"

It’s why I struggled to keep my hands from shaking as he was eventually held down on his bed and I administered the injection. He didn’t put up a fight. We weren’t preventing and managing violence and aggression. From Amit’s perspective, I don’t doubt we were perpetrating it. In that moment, however good my intentions, I was knowingly participating in his suffering. "

Read the story. I feel that it's likely they were doing the right thing, even against the patient's will. If that were me I'd probably agree, though not at the time (thank god that's not my life, I count myself so lucky).

But taking your question in a different direction, what would you prefer, that the government does not get involved in such cases? That we leave it to, say, private (profit-driven) companies?

Fuck no, never.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#284

Post by diveanon »

PostOnce wrote: post #282
diveanon wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said in my previous comment, it's only oppression when implemented as such. Technology is a tool, the one who wields it bears the moral responsibility to use it correctly. Address the root causes of systemic oppression in your country and systems like this have potential to do tremendous good.

This is like tying up a zombie and hoping it doesn't get loose. Well, as long as the handcuffs are secure "we'll be fine!". It always bites you in the end. Power corrupts, remember? Best to limit it.

You do realize we have thousands of nuclear weapons right?

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#285

Post by PostOnce »

diveanon wrote: post #284
PostOnce wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like tying up a zombie and hoping it doesn't get loose. Well, as long as the handcuffs are secure "we'll be fine!". It always bites you in the end. Power corrupts, remember? Best to limit it.

You do realize we have thousands of nuclear weapons right?

They've been used and will be again ... there's a reason we have so much media exploring that fear in fiction, a reason so many fallout shelters were built, a reason we derailed Iran's nuclear program. It's a big risk, and it's going to go really badly for us all one day, or at least that is as likely as peace is. So, what's your point?

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#286

Post by diveanon »

PostOnce wrote: post #285
diveanon wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize we have thousands of nuclear weapons right?

They've been used and will be again ... there's a reason we have so much media exploring that fear in fiction, a reason so many fallout shelters were built, a reason we derailed Iran's nuclear program. It's a big risk, and it's going to go really badly for us all one day, or at least that is as likely as peace is. So, what's your point?

They are a reality and have arguably saved more lives than they have taken.

We have systems in place to prevent their abuse and despite our personal dislike of them they serve purpose.

If we have learned to be judicious and cautious with their use I am confident we can handle something like an ai driven social monitoring program.

We trust our governments with the greatest destructive capability ever devised, what I am proposing is a far smaller threat.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#287

Post by antepodius »

mcv wrote: post #243
antepodius wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'We should hold police accountable and train them better' is orthogonal to 'you shouldn't talk to or interact with the police if you can help it'. You do the first to reduce the probable number of- let's say 'possibly evil police'. You do the second to reduce the probability of being damaged by 'possibly evil police'. Being for the first idea doesn't give a reason to be against the second idea. In fact, if your goal…

You're right. Still, I think it's terrible that 'you shouldn't talk to the police'. Talking to the police should be a safe thing to do. There should be trust between the people and the police. Police need to be able to talk to people in order to understand the real problems that need to be solved. My goal is not merely to not get fucked by the police, my goal is a better, safer society.

It doesn't matter how safe the police are comparatively, they'll never be safe. You can make the mechanisms on guns more and more reliable, and that's good, but not engaging in trigger/gun discipline is still always the wrong move.

Police have power. You can't have functional police that don't have power, so fundamentally police are dangerous.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#288

Post by bayesian_horse »

freeflight wrote: post #262
bayesian_horse wrote: post #92

Starting mental health interventions before that mental health problem turns into compulsory admission or criminal problems, sounds generally like a good idea.

Even human doctors struggle with proper mental diagnosis, I seriously doubt an AI is gonna do any better. Not to mention that every false positive would lead to the compulsory mental treatment of completely healthy people.

I share that concern. The policies referenced in the article emphasize interventions short of compulsory treatment.

In some cases even these "door knocks" can lead to admission, for example if the person visited exhibits strong signs of psychosis or potential for self-harm. The judgement of police officers may not be perfect but it is better than nothing.

I know that there are trade-offs to be made and caution is to be exercised, but in general I think it's worth a try to prevent escalation of mental health crisis.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#289

Post by mar77i »

DanBC wrote: post #139
jonathanstrange wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the reasons I've laid out, I see no reason whatsoever why law enforcement should use or have any such technology at all. If at all, this kind of technology should be used by social workers, maybe even under some additional protection and oath of confidentiality like lawyers and doctors have. That way, I could see some real beneficial crime prevention effects. However, the idea that potential troublemakers and del…

You've just converted the risk from "could be convicted of a crime if the state can prove that beyond all reasonable doubt" into "could lose their children if the state can prove it on the balance of probabilities", which feels worse to me.

...isn't that how Alex Jones got rid of his kids' custody?
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