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Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

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Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#101

Post by tempguy9999 »

laumars wrote: post #89
tempguy9999 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> help enable them to grow into better people Wow, 'better people' - that's loaded and almost completely unspecified here. That's ripe for abuse. "become christian, god will make you a better person" "do as you're told, obey orders, you'll be a better person" "don't disrupt the teacher even if they're wrong, people don't like 'clever' people" I could go on all day. That's the thin end of a dangerous wedge. I don't li…

You're looking for outrage rather than trying to understand point I'm making and in doing so you've gotten the wrong end of the proverbial stick. I'm not saying everyone should conform, I'm just saying some people need more help than others to make a life for themselves. Sometimes it's because of substance abuse, sometimes it's because of mental, physical or sexual abuse as a kid that leads them into a pattern of bad…

I didn't do a very good job here, and my last line really should have been omitted.

I agree with your original post, and this one too (will upvote both) but I am really wary of the potential for abuse that trying to help people become 'better' people can become.

A really ugly actual example from about 1969:

"Because homosexuality has been considered an endemic and deep-rooted condition since times of antiquity, hopes for its alleviation, until very recent times, have been faint. But lately, since other resistant mental aberrations have been overcome by new methods, somewhat drastic treatments are being used and advocated for the homosexual in some quarters."

And I emphasis, this is just one example, I could produce others in other fields.

All I'm saying is be very careful about the meaning of 'better'. Anyway, I do actually agree with you overall.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#102

Post by sonnyblarney »

mattlondon wrote: post #76
emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

What I find weird about all of this is that people actually answer their door to unexpected & unknown visitors?! Do you also answer your phone to unexpected & unknown callers?! My rule of thumb built up over years of annoyance & bullshit is: if you don't know who it is, or aren't expecting anything, ignore it; 99.9% of the time someone unexpected/unknown on the phone or at your door are just going to be wasting your…

When the police come to your door, you're going to answer.

Agree with the program or not, this is not spam.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#103

Post by sonnyblarney »

taneq wrote: post #12
emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

Yeah, without some pretty strong new protections in place there is absolutely no upside and likely a significant downside to letting them in. The police are not your friends.

"there is absolutely no upside "

The part where you're a drug addict and they've come to see if you want to go to rehab is a big potential upside.

"The police are not your friends"

Yes, the absolutely are. Despite the potential downsides.

I live in a shifty neighbourhood and visibly recognize the police staffers (I see them often, they come into the cafe etc.), there's a clinic across the street from me that deals with 'all kinds' ... in my view, a lot of policing is basically social work. That said I live in Canada.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#104

Post by perl4ever »

laumars wrote: post #89
tempguy9999 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> help enable them to grow into better people Wow, 'better people' - that's loaded and almost completely unspecified here. That's ripe for abuse. "become christian, god will make you a better person" "do as you're told, obey orders, you'll be a better person" "don't disrupt the teacher even if they're wrong, people don't like 'clever' people" I could go on all day. That's the thin end of a dangerous wedge. I don't li…

You're looking for outrage rather than trying to understand point I'm making and in doing so you've gotten the wrong end of the proverbial stick. I'm not saying everyone should conform, I'm just saying some people need more help than others to make a life for themselves. Sometimes it's because of substance abuse, sometimes it's because of mental, physical or sexual abuse as a kid that leads them into a pattern of bad…

This is the sort of logic that is used everywhere, whether by police or social services, but it doesn't work in practice the way it does in theory.

Providing help to people before there is a crisis sounds so nice and helpful, but due to the inherent drastic negative consequences of entering into the system, it ends up merely moving the punishment for not fitting in forward of the crisis. Thus, trying to be pro-active ends up harming people and/or reinforcing the mentality that you try to cope at all costs without help until you reach a breaking point.

For example, we all want to help people who are suicidal, right? But if someone's behavior triggers a response to such apparent potential, then very traumatic and non-helpful things can take place, including the temporary and/or permanent loss of freedoms.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#105

Post by sonnyblarney »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #96
emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

This should be the responsibility of social services rather than law enforcement. If someone is a likely offender then they are probably going to clam up at the sight of the police.

"police, health care professionals, and social workers participating in the Hub" - I think it probably (hopefully) mostly is.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#106

Post by Joe-Z »

Arnt wrote: post #95
mattlondon wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find weird about all of this is that people actually answer their door to unexpected & unknown visitors?! Do you also answer your phone to unexpected & unknown callers?! My rule of thumb built up over years of annoyance & bullshit is: if you don't know who it is, or aren't expecting anything, ignore it; 99.9% of the time someone unexpected/unknown on the phone or at your door are just going to be wasting your…

A friend of mine once read the local newspaper while he was on vacation somewhere, and there was a half-page article along the lines of: "Among the fans expected to show up for tomorrow's big sporting event are a large contingent of the country's worst hooligans. The police plans to increase its presence massively to ensure peace, with no less than eight extra officers." My friend decided to move there. Maybe you sho…

Maybe I should just forget about it, but I don't understand your point. Where did your friend move and why? Where you criticizing the police for increasing presence in case of a hooligan invasion? Or where you applauding them for doing so? And how is this connected to what GP posted?

I'm genuinely confused. If you read this, maybe you'd like to elaborate. Cheers!

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#107

Post by n4r9 »

dghf wrote: post #88
n4r9 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might have benevolent intentions, but it's often very dangerous to put these technologies into the hands of law enforcement. It reminds me of an incident in the UK a few years ago, when the Metropolitan (London) police trialed a facial recognition camera on the high street. One man reacted by covering up his face as he walked past. He was grabbed aside and ordered to remove the covering. When he responded angrily,…

> It reminds me of an incident in the UK a few years ago It was in January this year: https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/01/man-fined-refusing-show-face-... But yes, it was very worrying, especially the plains-clothes offficer's assertion that not voluntarily submitting to facial recognition was itself enough to create the reasonable suspicion necessary to compel you to submit to it.

You're right. I got confused with this and facial recognition being used at Notting Hill Carnival in 2016 and 2017:

https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2017/3628

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#108

Post by dao- »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #102
mattlondon wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find weird about all of this is that people actually answer their door to unexpected & unknown visitors?! Do you also answer your phone to unexpected & unknown callers?! My rule of thumb built up over years of annoyance & bullshit is: if you don't know who it is, or aren't expecting anything, ignore it; 99.9% of the time someone unexpected/unknown on the phone or at your door are just going to be wasting your…

When the police come to your door, you're going to answer. Agree with the program or not, this is not spam.

If they say "can we come in?" it likely means they're legally not allowed to come in unless you invite them in. Which means they won't kick down your door either if you just don't answer.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#109

Post by netsharc »

Joe-Z wrote: post #106
Arnt wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine once read the local newspaper while he was on vacation somewhere, and there was a half-page article along the lines of: "Among the fans expected to show up for tomorrow's big sporting event are a large contingent of the country's worst hooligans. The police plans to increase its presence massively to ensure peace, with no less than eight extra officers." My friend decided to move there. Maybe you sho…

Maybe I should just forget about it, but I don't understand your point. Where did your friend move and why? Where you criticizing the police for increasing presence in case of a hooligan invasion? Or where you applauding them for doing so? And how is this connected to what GP posted? I'm genuinely confused. If you read this, maybe you'd like to elaborate. Cheers!

Not the poster, but maybe the fact that they only needed 8 officers means the hooliganism wouldn't even be that bad, meaning it's a very peaceful place.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#110

Post by Joe-Z »

mattlondon wrote: post #76
emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

What I find weird about all of this is that people actually answer their door to unexpected & unknown visitors?! Do you also answer your phone to unexpected & unknown callers?! My rule of thumb built up over years of annoyance & bullshit is: if you don't know who it is, or aren't expecting anything, ignore it; 99.9% of the time someone unexpected/unknown on the phone or at your door are just going to be wasting your…

I can't claim to have been harrassed by unexpected visitors, I also do find unannounced visits annyoing however.

It's something that I also communicate to my friends (although I would never not open the door for them, for obvious reasons). My reasoning is kind of like "I've been fulfilling my societal duties all week goddammit, if I want to be alone in my cave for a few hours just leave me be!"

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