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Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

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Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#131

Post by Waterluvian »

mattlondon wrote: post #76
emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

What I find weird about all of this is that people actually answer their door to unexpected & unknown visitors?! Do you also answer your phone to unexpected & unknown callers?! My rule of thumb built up over years of annoyance & bullshit is: if you don't know who it is, or aren't expecting anything, ignore it; 99.9% of the time someone unexpected/unknown on the phone or at your door are just going to be wasting your…

This fascinates me so much because the idea that there's anything at all risky about opening your door to a stranger is the thing that's completely alien to my world.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#132

Post by ascar »

mattlondon wrote: post #76
emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

What I find weird about all of this is that people actually answer their door to unexpected & unknown visitors?! Do you also answer your phone to unexpected & unknown callers?! My rule of thumb built up over years of annoyance & bullshit is: if you don't know who it is, or aren't expecting anything, ignore it; 99.9% of the time someone unexpected/unknown on the phone or at your door are just going to be wasting your…

I got a call from an unknown number. It was the hospital telling me my father had an accident. Do you want to miss such a call?

I always answer the door and the phone.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#133

Post by mcv »

bmmayer1 wrote: post #121
mcv wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But countries do have a decision making process. It's called politics. It doesn't control every aspect of the country, and culture in particular is hard to control directly, but police is a government function, paid by taxes. If there's anything a country should be able to control, it's how their police operates.

If that's true, then there's a problem with this statement: > In my opinion, a police that's feared rather than trusted, is a sign of a police state or totalitarian regime. If that's not what the country wants to be, then it's a problem that needs to be fixed The assumption is that if the police is feared / overly militaristic, then by definition that country must 'want' to be a police state. Given that Americans ove…

If Americans don't want to live in a police state, then they should demand that the behaviour of their police changes. That police officers are held accountable, and are better trained to perform their job in the interest of the people, rather than merely their own interest or that of the government.

If you have control over your police, then please exercise it.

I think the problem that's holding Americans back, also evidenced in this discussion here, is that they've learned to accept this hostile relationship with the police as normal. It's not. It's harmful, and should be unacceptable.

> So is it possible that maybe we're not the jackbooted thugocratic police state that we're portrayed to be?

I certainly hope so. I've never been to the US; I'm just going by what Americans themselves are telling me about their country. And some of the things they're saying is that you should fear the police, not talk to the police, etc. It's not a single person claiming this; I hear this every single time this topic comes up. So I'm inclined to take it as true.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#134

Post by ascar »

netsharc wrote: post #109
Joe-Z wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I should just forget about it, but I don't understand your point. Where did your friend move and why? Where you criticizing the police for increasing presence in case of a hooligan invasion? Or where you applauding them for doing so? And how is this connected to what GP posted? I'm genuinely confused. If you read this, maybe you'd like to elaborate. Cheers!

Not the poster, but maybe the fact that they only needed 8 officers means the hooliganism wouldn't even be that bad, meaning it's a very peaceful place.

And that 8 is a massive increase in presence.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#135

Post by liability »

Joe-Z wrote: post #106
Arnt wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine once read the local newspaper while he was on vacation somewhere, and there was a half-page article along the lines of: "Among the fans expected to show up for tomorrow's big sporting event are a large contingent of the country's worst hooligans. The police plans to increase its presence massively to ensure peace, with no less than eight extra officers." My friend decided to move there. Maybe you sho…

Maybe I should just forget about it, but I don't understand your point. Where did your friend move and why? Where you criticizing the police for increasing presence in case of a hooligan invasion? Or where you applauding them for doing so? And how is this connected to what GP posted? I'm genuinely confused. If you read this, maybe you'd like to elaborate. Cheers!

In some places, 100 extra cops would be considered a modest increase. If 8 more cops is considered a large increase, and the region is nice enough to vacation at, chances are it's a low crime community.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#136

Post by liability »

king_magic wrote: post #116
sonnyblarney wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the police come to your door, you're going to answer. Agree with the program or not, this is not spam.

There’s a reaaaaaally thin line between (sincere) “We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?” and (menacing, oppressive) “We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?”. And there’s a really thin line between having the choice to answer your door, and being compelled to for no legitimate reason.

Less menacing than either would be "can you come out to chat", or better yet, "come to the door to chat".

I'd let concerned EMTs into my house, but I'd rather keep concerned cops out.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#137

Post by DanBC »

jammygit wrote: post #50

“Information about people believed to be “at risk” of becoming criminals or victims of harm is shared between civilian agencies and police and is added to the database when a person is being evaluated for a rapid intervention intended to lower their risk levels.” Remind anybody else of precrime from minority report?

No.

I am reminded of the many coroner's inquest reports I've read where agencies refused to share information with each other because they misunderstood laws about privacy, and then someone dies a self-inflicted death.

Very often the families of those who died had been telling agencies, for some time, that they were concerned about their loved-one, but were being ignored by those agencies.

This is why national strategy in England includes consensus statements on information sharing. These consensus statements lay out the law (which hasn't changed; there's still a legal duty to maintain confidentiality), and when it is or isn't ok to share information and who can do that.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#138

Post by laumars »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #129
laumars wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where you're coming from and did address some of what you discussed in my first post too. I completely agree it's a short hop from helping to interfering, however where we differ is I think not having a support system at all is more negligent. I should also reiterate my earlier caveat that I don't agree in profiling people at a mass level like the article suggests is happening. I'd be interested to read…

> Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. What are you saying, and what do you think should happen if someone is suicidal? Please think very carefully before answering. Edit: have you any experience with desire for suicide, or any experience with anyone you know well who wanted to, or succeeded in suicide?

> What are you saying

Literally all I'm saying is suicide is a separate topic because it's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into.

> what do you think should happen if someone is suicidal?

I don't really want to get into an off topic discussion about mental health which is why I didn't go into more detail in my previous post. However if you want more information about mental health then you can visit https://www.mind.org.uk/

> Please think very carefully before answering.

The tone of your posts are very antagonistic. I can't tell if this is intentional or not but it isn't pleasant to read.

> have you any experience with desire for suicide, or any experience with anyone you know well who wanted to, or succeeded in suicide?

Yes

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#139

Post by DanBC »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #126
mar77i wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must say I'm on the fence about such databases, because I realize how law enforcement and social services can benefit from increased cooperation and having an idea how person might behave when they're stressed out, ie. when police confronts them. In Switzerland we had several scandals in the previous century about political and social tracking that police implemented without governmental oversight, and since the la…

For the reasons I've laid out, I see no reason whatsoever why law enforcement should use or have any such technology at all. If at all, this kind of technology should be used by social workers, maybe even under some additional protection and oath of confidentiality like lawyers and doctors have. That way, I could see some real beneficial crime prevention effects. However, the idea that potential troublemakers and del…

You've just converted the risk from "could be convicted of a crime if the state can prove that beyond all reasonable doubt" into "could lose their children if the state can prove it on the balance of probabilities", which feels worse to me.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#140

Post by 2Ccltvcm »

ascar wrote: post #132
mattlondon wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find weird about all of this is that people actually answer their door to unexpected & unknown visitors?! Do you also answer your phone to unexpected & unknown callers?! My rule of thumb built up over years of annoyance & bullshit is: if you don't know who it is, or aren't expecting anything, ignore it; 99.9% of the time someone unexpected/unknown on the phone or at your door are just going to be wasting your…

I got a call from an unknown number. It was the hospital telling me my father had an accident. Do you want to miss such a call? I always answer the door and the phone.

Let it go to voice mail. Most callers won't leave one.
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