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Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

vice.com

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Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#171

Post by dsfyu404ed »

mattlondon wrote: post #76
emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

What I find weird about all of this is that people actually answer their door to unexpected & unknown visitors?! Do you also answer your phone to unexpected & unknown callers?! My rule of thumb built up over years of annoyance & bullshit is: if you don't know who it is, or aren't expecting anything, ignore it; 99.9% of the time someone unexpected/unknown on the phone or at your door are just going to be wasting your…

Random person knocking on my door during normal hours gets answered normally. Knocking on doors is high effort enough to filter out most of the spam and my door gets knocked on like twice a year so it's really not a huge loss if I get spammed.

Random person knocking at the door at 1am results in me answering the door with one of the USSR's most prolific exports within arms reach in case anybody needs the ol' East Houston treatment. They might be having an emergency and need help but it's also wise to be conscious of who's knocking. If there's three dudes on my porch and a fourth sitting in a running car then I'll ask them what they heck they want without opening the door.

I don't answer the door for anyone in a uniform unless I'm expecting them. If the government needs to tell me something or interact with me in any legitimate capacity they'll send a letter.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#172

Post by maccard »

whatshisface wrote: post #157
Waterluvian wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This fascinates me so much because the idea that there's anything at all risky about opening your door to a stranger is the thing that's completely alien to my world.

They might be trying to sell you something. How often would an unannounced visitor be unwanted vs. wanted?

Or it might be someone from a few doors down with some badly delivered mail, a courier with a parcel your partner/roommate ordered or a new neighbour introducing themselves, someone felling you theyre having a party and would appreciate you not calling the cops at 10pm.

I get maybe 4 sales knocks a year, I just say not interested and close the door!

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#173

Post by perl4ever »

laumars wrote: post #118
perl4ever wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the sort of logic that is used everywhere, whether by police or social services, but it doesn't work in practice the way it does in theory. Providing help to people before there is a crisis sounds so nice and helpful, but due to the inherent drastic negative consequences of entering into the system, it ends up merely moving the punishment for not fitting in forward of the crisis. Thus, trying to be pro-active…

I understand where you're coming from and did address some of what you discussed in my first post too. I completely agree it's a short hop from helping to interfering, however where we differ is I think not having a support system at all is more negligent. I should also reiterate my earlier caveat that I don't agree in profiling people at a mass level like the article suggests is happening. I'd be interested to read…

"Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into."

I don't understand the distinction you are making. People with mental illness make choices, are lead into things, etc.

People who are expelled from school or incarcerated don't want to be in that situation but they are anyway. That seems like mental illness to me - counterproductive behavior that can't be willed to stop.

The tragic fact I'm trying to communicate about attempts to help people is that the first step is to get someone who is vulnerable to trust authorities. And then that trust is necessarily betrayed, because the whole point is to try to help people without their consent. Not being able to trust is a primary cause or contributing factor to being unable to function properly in society.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#174

Post by dao- »

gambiting wrote: post #143
dao- wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a person of color? Do you have piercings, pink hair, stuff like that? Maybe you shouldn't generalize solely based on your personal experience?

Where did I generalize?? "I would have zero problem". "Based on my interactions". "I would describe them". That's the phrasing I used, very specifically and on purpose in fact. Is that a problem?

I read it as a rebuke to a generalized statement that you characterized as US-centric, hence implying that outside of the US the police are your friends. You also said "they do generally want to help" which is a rather explicit generalization.

If you just meant to say that the police are your personal friends, that's fine I guess, but the comment you replied to didn't really rule that out in the first place.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#175

Post by [deleted] »

Intermernet wrote: post #165
laumars wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where you're coming from and did address some of what you discussed in my first post too. I completely agree it's a short hop from helping to interfering, however where we differ is I think not having a support system at all is more negligent. I should also reiterate my earlier caveat that I don't agree in profiling people at a mass level like the article suggests is happening. I'd be interested to read…

>Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. Is it always a mental illness? I have to say that I hate the circumstances that lead people to suicide, and I don't think that I'd ever follow that course, but don't the reasons for suicide range from mental illness (eg depression) all the way to self determination (eg suffering from a termi…

[deleted]

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#176

Post by taneq »

Super_Jambo wrote: post #48
sgift wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in this scenario the police are unprompted at your door and their first ask is to come into your house. If the police just want to talk to you because they're concerned about you personally they'll just ask to talk to you in a place they wouldn't otherwise need a search warrant signed by a judge to enter. "Their first ask is to come into your house" is based on a quote Vice took out of context (and then blew up…

An unknown Police Office is in a super position of nice and law abiding or corrupt and malicious. If there's no real downside in assuming they are corrupt, you're much safer behaving as if they are.

Doesn't even need to be corrupt and malicious, they could just be an asshole. There are enough little things to trip you up ("give me six words from the hand of an innocent man" etc.) that if a cop wants to badly enough he can probably legally ping you for something.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#177

Post by _lessthan0 »

barry-cotter wrote: post #161
sgift wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post and the article have the same problem: Thinking the way police works/seems to work in the US (always out to get you) is universal to the world while it is the exception. Police in other countries usually works out of a desire to help.

In most of the world the police could beat you to death with video evidence and they’d get away with it. Competent, professional more or less upright police are not the worldwide or historical norm. In most of the world the police are the biggest gang. Police in the US are the very model of probity, courtesy and professionalism compared to almost every country in the Western Hemisphere, never mind African, Arab or As…

lmao, unless you are not a white hetero male. US police are most likely the worst in the west.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#178

Post by DanBC »

laumars wrote: post #155
DanBC wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what you're saying. This point, however, is wrong. I don't think it being wrong changes your argument at all. > suicide is a [...] a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into. Lots of people who die by suicide do not have a history of mental illness and would not meet a definition of "mentally ill" at the time of their death. They die because of rapid onset despair rather than…

It's a misconception that mental illness means someone who isn't capacitous. Granted that can be the case at the extreme end of the spectrum but the term is a lot broader than that.

Please read the researchers. Many people who die by suicide don't meet the criteria for mental illness at the time of their death and haven't had a history of mental ill health.

https://twitter.com/AASuicidology/status/1097907434402779137

https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/939820235946971138

https://twitter.com/ProfLAppleby/status/981608114112946177

https://twitter.com/JE_Boland/status/958649913159581696

https://twitter.com/CRHT_Julie/status/987008407738769408

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#179

Post by taneq »

munmaek wrote: post #58
sgift wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post and the article have the same problem: Thinking the way police works/seems to work in the US (always out to get you) is universal to the world while it is the exception. Police in other countries usually works out of a desire to help.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the US and everything to do with an asymmetric relationship. The police have immense power, you do not. What do you have to gain from interacting with the police? Now, compare this to what you stand to lose by interacting with the police. The rule is simple: don't interact with the police. They are not your friends, anything you do or say can and will be used against you at a wh…

> What do you have to gain from interacting with the police? Now, compare this to what you stand to lose by interacting with the police.

This is the bottom line. 90% of police that I have personally interacted with (even when I've been in the wrong) have been absolute professionals and, I believe, genuinely good people. The other 10% are why I'm polite but cautious.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#180

Post by imgabe »

emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

"Wellness checks" are a thing in the US too. They are often for the case of "I haven't seen my neighbor in a week and there's a funny smell coming from their home." I don't see how it's a violation of any rights to knock on a door.
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