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If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

anildash.com

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Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#31

Post by tlholaday »

malvosenior wrote: post #16

I feel like Anil Dash is pretty much the last person who should be talking about internet “assholes”. He’s very often on the front lines of Twitter mobs and is generally extremely caustic. He should reflect on his own behavior online before preaching to anyone else.

> I feel like Anil Dash is pretty much the last person who should be talking about internet “assholes”.

Your feelings may have tempted you into making this off-topic post. The linked essay concerns comment section protocols, not personalities.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#32

Post by bigred100 »

wpietri wrote: post #26
ve55 wrote: post #10

This post is more reasonable for smaller curated communities, but as we can see from, well, every large social website that exists currently, it can be difficult to scale. I'm curious what the other thinks the solution would be to an obvious example like Twitter. When a website consists of so many groups of users that everyone's definition of 'assholes' contradicts the others, you find that banning them gets to be pr…

Having worked at Twitter on abuse, I think that Twitter could do far more. They've gotten better, but it's still trivially easy to evade bans, the moderation decisions are frequently terrible, and there are a zillion other things wrong. That said, I think an ad-funded global discussion is impossible. You can't do good user moderation with that little money (~$0.10 per user per day total revenue, with a tiny fraction…

Why don’t the US or someone just use government funding to set up some sort of distributed protocol that lets people talk

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#33

Post by tlholaday »

Causality1 wrote: post #4

Most places benefit from having strong and effectively enforced moderation policies. However, I also think there's significant value in having some places that don't, that serve as content-neutral platforms, the social media equivalent of the post office.

> I also think there's significant value in having some places that [...] serve as content-neutral platforms.

You may be right about the value of such places, and Anil Dash's prediction that such places will be full of assholes may right, too.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#34

Post by braythwayt »

malvosenior wrote: post #16

I feel like Anil Dash is pretty much the last person who should be talking about internet “assholes”. He’s very often on the front lines of Twitter mobs and is generally extremely caustic. He should reflect on his own behavior online before preaching to anyone else.

This is a fairly classic ad hominem comment.

What difference does it make who makes this argument, if the argument itself is sound? On the other hand, if the man is 50% saint, 50% angel, and 50% genius, what difference would that make, if the argument itself was terrible?

Comments suggesting that he shouldn't make this argument do not actually address the argument itself. In the best case, they are a distraction from the subject being discussed.

In the worst case, they are a form of tone policing, which is a tactic for silencing sound arguments by complaining that they are not being made by the right people, or in the right way. Example:

A man murders another man. The police torture him into a confession. He complains about the torture. Is he the last person that should be complaining about violence? But if not him, who? Must we wait for the perfect angel of an innocent victim of police brutality, before we act on it?

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#36

Post by gjs278 »

knolax wrote: post #28
dahart wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the time. I see dang smoothing things out like almost daily. You can also turn on “showdead” in your profile options, and maybe you’ll become more aware of it.

I have "show dead" turned on and most of the time the same account posting dead comment after dead comment keeps it up for weeks.

that’s because we are told if we want to be unbanned we have to keep posting dead comments and one day they’ll unban us if enough comments get approved

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#37

Post by seisvelas »

goldcd wrote: post #25

I think it depends on the website you're wanting to run.. I was part of a now-dead "threaded message board", which had a somewhat cliquey view of what should/shouldn't be posted. In the evening when the moderators were away, the discussion became more interesting as it strayed off-topic. Eventually the community wanted 'to fork' so I decided to build something myself. I'm not IT trained, so first version was PL/SQL o…

This is a lovely comment, and now I'm super curious to see what the site is.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#38

Post by goldcd »

goldcd wrote: post #25

I think it depends on the website you're wanting to run.. I was part of a now-dead "threaded message board", which had a somewhat cliquey view of what should/shouldn't be posted. In the evening when the moderators were away, the discussion became more interesting as it strayed off-topic. Eventually the community wanted 'to fork' so I decided to build something myself. I'm not IT trained, so first version was PL/SQL o…

I now realize, I didn't add a conclusion.

My little site is 'local' - I don't have to deal with the world turning up.

I don't need admins, I don't need a TOS, I don't need arbitration systems etc etc.

There's a good community of people who just get along. Rough edges were knocked off a long time ago.

We're a little niche ignored by the world - and we like it that way.

Issues with 'toxic' influx come when you're trying to drive people in/draw attention.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#39

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh »

tlholaday wrote: post #31
malvosenior wrote: post #16

I feel like Anil Dash is pretty much the last person who should be talking about internet “assholes”. He’s very often on the front lines of Twitter mobs and is generally extremely caustic. He should reflect on his own behavior online before preaching to anyone else.

> I feel like Anil Dash is pretty much the last person who should be talking about internet “assholes”. Your feelings may have tempted you into making this off-topic post. The linked essay concerns comment section protocols, not personalities.

And the post you replied to is also talking about how Anil Dash behaves on Twitter (== comment section of an online community), and I agree with them that though he might not agree with this assessment, Dash's behavior is more likely to fall on the asshole side than not.

This isn't about the ad-hominem. The general point Dash is trying to make is fine. But it's easy to preach about not allowing assholes when you don't consider yourself to be one. The day the zeitgeist shifts considerably in the favor of assessing him as an asshole, I suspect Dash might sing a very different tune about site moderation policies.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#40

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh »

braythwayt wrote: post #34
malvosenior wrote: post #16

I feel like Anil Dash is pretty much the last person who should be talking about internet “assholes”. He’s very often on the front lines of Twitter mobs and is generally extremely caustic. He should reflect on his own behavior online before preaching to anyone else.

This is a fairly classic ad hominem comment. What difference does it make who makes this argument, if the argument itself is sound? On the other hand, if the man is 50% saint, 50% angel, and 50% genius, what difference would that make, if the argument itself was terrible? Comments suggesting that he shouldn't make this argument do not actually address the argument itself. In the best case, they are a distraction from…

It does make a difference when you believe that the reason Dash is making this kind of argument is because of his life experiences (or lack thereof).

The general point Dash is trying to make about moderating communities is fine. But it's easy to preach about not allowing assholes when you don't consider yourself to be one. The day the zeitgeist shifts considerably in the favor of assessing him as an asshole, I suspect Dash might sing a very different tune about site moderation policies.

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