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Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

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Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#271

Post by _bxg1 »

hef19898 wrote: post #57
hu3 wrote: post #2

A slap in the face to the comments that were dismissing concerns as overreactions and stating that 737-MAX would return to operation shortly. Not in EU at least.

As far as I know this is one of the rare few, read I can't recall one, occasions in which EASA didn't accept FAA certification. Usually it is cross- certification between the two. Things are getting interesting and not necessarily in a good way as cooperation is reduced. That it makes sense in this special case is only further proof.

I think even more so than Boeing itself, people's confidence in the FAA has been completely shattered. Personally I'm not going to take their word anymore for the safety of the planes I fly on; I'll be looking at the EASA's rulings.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#272

Post by [deleted] »

peteretep wrote: post #185
nocturnial wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how are they going to be held accountable? They already have several contracts which states victims can't sue the company. Maybe not everyone signed, but then it's about how much they can pay their lawyers.

> They already have several contracts which states victims can't sue the company Contracts with whom? A member country EU court with a dead passenger could presumably make life very very uncomfortable for senior Boeing management.

[deleted]

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#273

Post by [deleted] »

bdamm wrote: post #233
simongr3dal wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe they just fly Learjet.

GP has a point. Flying on Boeing airplanes is something basically everyone does. Even if the executives themselves don't, they have parents, children, aunts, uncles, best men, grand-children, friends, children of friends, lawyers, and government contacts who do. It's not like they're sitting by the gate sucking the blood of passengers. They're still delivering the safest method of transportation around, not only by d…

[deleted]

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#274

Post by Gwypaas »

sgc wrote: post #166
piva00 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is exactly the issue, that within the very short period while the 737 MAX has been active it has had major incidents. Naturally it'll be skewed but also naturally it tells something about its risk given the safety record of the aviation industry.

Almost all planes have more crashes in their early years, and many had worse or equally bad early records. It's too early to claim the 737-MAX will be inherently less safe than other planes using a multi-decade long measure.

Which modern plane do you want to compare it with?

The 787, 747-8, A380, A350, A320neo and A220 all have zero fatal incidents. That is what I expect flying a modern aircraft.

Stop being ridiculous.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#275

Post by polotics »

dstola wrote: post #214
evanagon wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are financial incentives if their customers choose competing products because of safety concerns.

I dont think people will all of a sudden start ditching cheap flights just to avoid the max or Boeing. Airline industry is extremely price sensitive from a consumer perspective, and for people to potentially sacrifice hundreds of dollars of savings would be a non sequitur. For example, if airline A flies MAX and has a ticket for 200 and another airline B has the same route for 400 on A320, most people I know would st…

Here is one data point for you: no matter the price of alternatives, I will not step on a 737. Ever.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#276

Post by atoav »

yodsanklai wrote: post #238
CaptainZapp wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel confident that Boeing would accept the cost of grounding the fleet the next time something serious-but-not-yet-crashing shows up. They wouldn't even ground the fleet if death and destruction occurs. Like they didn't do after the Lion Air crash. Even after the Ethiopian plane they tried hell and high water, including a call to the president, to not have the plane grounded. It's clear that to Boeing, their…

> It's clear that to Boeing, their numbers are more important than lives. Isn't it the case by design for any corporation?

Not necessarily. IMO it highly depends whether a company’s goal is short or long term gain.

If you have a hard time competing and every day is a fight anyways, why would you act in a way that is sustainable in the long term?

If you listened to the NYT’s the Daily podcast where they interview a former Boeing quality manager/whistleblower this is clearly the picture that is painted here: Managment doesn’t give a shit if they use potentially broken or dangerous parts, they leave metal debree and garbage inside the wmhull right next to important control lines, in one case they forgot a whole ladder inside.

The 737 Max is not the illness, it is just the first visible symptom.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#277

Post by 3JPLW »

adrr wrote: post #85
NikolaeVarius wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, risks are insignificant. It's extremely irrational to be scared to fly on Boeing.

Out 300 Boeing Max delivered since it was release in 2016, there has been 2 full hull losses with full loss of life. I bet if you do the numbers it is the most dangerous way of traveling. Tesla gets shit on for autopilot and it’s killed 4 people but has 100s of thousand of cars on the road with autopilot.

> I bet if you do the numbers it is the most dangerous way of traveling

That's just crazy talk. If it's more dangerous than a car I'll eat my hat.

According to NYT/Flightaware, there were ~8600 737Max flights per week. Let's call it 8000, and limit our analysis to the past year. Let's also make the very low assumption there are only 100 passengers on each.

8000 * 100 * 50 is very conservative 40 million passenger trips per year. And there were 350 deaths.

Cars have a fatality rate of ~1 per 100 million miles. That means that the average distance traveled needs to be ~1000 miles to be better than cars.

I challenge you to find better numbers estimates, but my very conservative numbers says they're on par or better than cars. I must confess I'm a little surprised how close it was.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#278

Post by [deleted] »

peteretep wrote: post #185
nocturnial wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how are they going to be held accountable? They already have several contracts which states victims can't sue the company. Maybe not everyone signed, but then it's about how much they can pay their lawyers.

> They already have several contracts which states victims can't sue the company Contracts with whom? A member country EU court with a dead passenger could presumably make life very very uncomfortable for senior Boeing management.

[deleted]

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#279

Post by nocturnial »

peteretep wrote: post #185
nocturnial wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how are they going to be held accountable? They already have several contracts which states victims can't sue the company. Maybe not everyone signed, but then it's about how much they can pay their lawyers.

> They already have several contracts which states victims can't sue the company Contracts with whom? A member country EU court with a dead passenger could presumably make life very very uncomfortable for senior Boeing management.

I wrote victim and not dead passenger as you falsely implied.

The contracts are with the surviving familing members. If you don't consider them as victims then give me another word for it.

edit: If you downvote me at least give me a chance to defend why I chose the word victim. The reply gizmo is there.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#280

Post by metanoia »

polotics wrote: post #275
dstola wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think people will all of a sudden start ditching cheap flights just to avoid the max or Boeing. Airline industry is extremely price sensitive from a consumer perspective, and for people to potentially sacrifice hundreds of dollars of savings would be a non sequitur. For example, if airline A flies MAX and has a ticket for 200 and another airline B has the same route for 400 on A320, most people I know would st…

Here is one data point for you: no matter the price of alternatives, I will not step on a 737. Ever.

You have already, probably multiple times. The 737 model is proven over 50 years of service.

The Max has issues, for sure, and I will be weary of that as well as the upcoming 777X, but I wouldn't hesitate to get on any prior 737 or other Boeing model.

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