IMHO anytime an airline releases a statement that says "we have updated our software", its basically the same thing as saying, "Im sorry, but our plane was unstable because of buggy code, hopefully this patch will make sure our planes dont go down." That is scary, software developers make errors, and when your plane is going down because of software related issue, THAT IS A HUGE PROBLEM.
Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review
211–220 of 407 posts
Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review
#212Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.
Don't mind any of the planes that aren't 737-Max or 787. Definitely reluctant to fly 737-Max anytime soon even after it has been approved. As for the 787, while I have a little bit of hesitancy, I figure it's been around long enough that we at least know it is safer than driving a car, so probably okay to ride in it, although it might not be as safe as other planes.
What's wrong with 787s?
Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review
#213Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.
I would be extremely hesitant to ever fly on a 737 MAX again because, even when MCAS is fixed, software is being used to fix a fundamental physics problem. I'd fly on other Boeing planes without worry, though.
100% agree. Anytime you are using software to hide a larger problem, that is a huge red flag.
Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unless you start putting Boeing executives in jail, there is literally ZERO incentive for them not to repeat all this. In fact, the CEO and senior executives have probably already received their massive bonuses for the MAX sales. It's not like they're going to be asked to return those bonuses now with all this fiasco.
There are financial incentives if their customers choose competing products because of safety concerns.
I dont think people will all of a sudden start ditching cheap flights just to avoid the max or Boeing. Airline industry is extremely price sensitive from a consumer perspective, and for people to potentially sacrifice hundreds of dollars of savings would be a non sequitur.
For example, if airline A flies MAX and has a ticket for 200 and another airline B has the same route for 400 on A320, most people I know would still fly the MAX because they cant afford to be picky.
I think talking with your wallet works only when the price is relatively inelastic
Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's categorically not true. https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/aviation/how-the-boeing-... 737 Max experiences dynamic instability, where a high angle of attack is prone to increase the angle of attack at an increasing rate.
That is not dynamic instability.
Yes it is: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/is-the-boeing-737-max...
There are many sources that reach the same conclusion.
Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's literally what happens to the 737 max airframe. Specifically, the angle of attack is prone to increasing at high angle of attacks.
That's not dynamic instability.
Are you going to provide any source for that?
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/is-the-boeing-737-max...
Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
Don't mind any of the planes that aren't 737-Max or 787. Definitely reluctant to fly 737-Max anytime soon even after it has been approved. As for the 787, while I have a little bit of hesitancy, I figure it's been around long enough that we at least know it is safer than driving a car, so probably okay to ride in it, although it might not be as safe as other planes.
What's wrong with 787s?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/business/boeing-dreamline...
> Safety lapses at the North Charleston plant have drawn the scrutiny of airlines and regulators. Qatar Airways stopped accepting planes from the factory after manufacturing mishaps damaged jets and delayed deliveries. Workers have filed nearly a dozen whistle-blower claims and safety complaints with federal regulators, describing issues like defective manufacturing, debris left on planes and pressure to not report violations. Others have sued Boeing, saying they were retaliated against for flagging manufacturing mistakes.
Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
The non-MAX 737s are still shitty planes to fly on. It's an ancient airframe: it's cramped, it's noisy, it just sucks. And it's a fuel hog too (which is why they made the MAX version). The competing aircraft are all much newer and nicer. The only reason anyone was buying the MAX was 1) because they had already bought into Boeing and the 737 and it's cheaper to just get a 737MAX which doesn't require any pilot retrain…
i've read that for pilots, the 737 is better and more manual (if the need arises to fix things or do overrides) compared to the airbus a320 which is a bit newer and has more electronics and sort of does a lot of things for you, but also obv more likely where things can go wrong
Airbus and Boeing have had very different perspectives on flight automation, with airbus tending more towards computer control. I’m not a pilot, but I’m given to understanding that Boeing is slowly shifting over towards Airbus’ style, with more computer intervention in pilot actions.
Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
Don't mind any of the planes that aren't 737-Max or 787. Definitely reluctant to fly 737-Max anytime soon even after it has been approved. As for the 787, while I have a little bit of hesitancy, I figure it's been around long enough that we at least know it is safer than driving a car, so probably okay to ride in it, although it might not be as safe as other planes.
What's wrong with 787s?
It had some battery fire issues at the start. We also don't quite know how well its composite airframe ages - it may just be that the issues are not apparent yet, or that they don't exist at all.
I hate the 787 for those terrible stupid windows and the ability the crew has to bypass local controls and prevent me from looking out whenever I want.
Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I will not fly the 737 MAX unless and until it has its own type certificate then you will never be able to fly one. It cannot get its own type certificate.
First off, sure it could go through certification de novo to get its own type certificate. Does not mean Boeing will do that (it is antithetical to their purpose with the aircraft). I am happy not flying on it as a 737-typed aircraft.
A new type certificate cannot use grandfather rights. The 737 max would not qualify for one by current standards.