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Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

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Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#181

Post by esoterica »

thinkloop wrote: post #111
s_dev wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flying -- even accounting for all the 737 Max crashes is still statistically by far the safest form of travel per unit of distance travelled -- the 737 Max is a blip just like 9/11.

Unit of distance is not the correct measure to use for safety because it skews heavily towards speed. The fastest means of transport will almost always look the safest. Consider if planes doubled their speed overnight (which they can, it's just a matter of gas/costs) and crashes remained the same - did they instantly become twice as safe? Definitely not, there is still the fixed risks of takeoff, landing, and being i…

What additional miles? The hypothetical was twice the speed, not twice the distance. If you double the distance and keep the same number of crashes, then of course planes are twice as safe. Why would you suggest otherwise?

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#182

Post by simongr3dal »

ReptileMan wrote: post #179
atonse wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you start putting Boeing executives in jail, there is literally ZERO incentive for them not to repeat all this. In fact, the CEO and senior executives have probably already received their massive bonuses for the MAX sales. It's not like they're going to be asked to return those bonuses now with all this fiasco.

Boing executives and their friends and families also fly on their planes.

Or maybe they just fly Learjet.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#183

Post by thefounder »

radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

I wouldn't be surprised to see another MAX going down soon after it starts flying again. Let the others test/try the updates first...

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#184

Post by drivebyops »

s_dev wrote: post #65
radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

Flying -- even accounting for all the 737 Max crashes is still statistically by far the safest form of travel per unit of distance travelled -- the 737 Max is a blip just like 9/11.

The statistics for this include motorcycles. I would really like to see one for only vehicles.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#185

Post by peteretep »

nocturnial wrote: post #61
MobileVet wrote: post #13

Good. Hold them accountable and make sure that this kind of thing doesn’t happen again. Although a ‘same plane’ cert was a good goal, they should have made sure it was truly accurate instead of bending the case to make it so. This may be as close to an ‘open and shut’ case for corporate gross negligence as we will find in quite a while (at least I hope so). I would hate to see them go under but it should be clear tha…

And how are they going to be held accountable? They already have several contracts which states victims can't sue the company. Maybe not everyone signed, but then it's about how much they can pay their lawyers.

> They already have several contracts which states victims can't sue the company

Contracts with whom? A member country EU court with a dead passenger could presumably make life very very uncomfortable for senior Boeing management.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#186

Post by peteretep »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #59
Aromasin wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things are certainly looking bullish for Airbus in the aftermath of this.

I'm not sure. First of all they will not capitalize on this. Airlines as well as manufacturers never use (lack of) security with a competitor as a marketing argument. Moreover. Order books for the main competitor, The A320NEO and derivatives, are full until something like 2025. It's possible that it's an advantage for the A220 (Bombardier C series) as some commenter pointed out. Which, incidentally, is a fantastic pa…

> Airlines as well as manufacturers never use (lack of) security with a competitor as a marketing argument.

Suspect they're very happy to use consumer confidence as a marketing argument though.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#187

Post by PedroBatista »

radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

Even more now, because now it's mainstream knowledge of how rotten the whole thing is.

The more you scratch the more the Boeing-FAA relationship stinks. The way Boeing is dealing with this, they way FAA "trusts" Boeing.

Deep down we know most of them don't care much about the people who fly on their planes, but damn seeing it how exactly that plays out is terrifying.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#189

Post by davidgay »

icebraining wrote: post #145
thinkloop wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unit of distance is not the correct measure to use for safety because it skews heavily towards speed. The fastest means of transport will almost always look the safest. Consider if planes doubled their speed overnight (which they can, it's just a matter of gas/costs) and crashes remained the same - did they instantly become twice as safe? Definitely not, there is still the fixed risks of takeoff, landing, and being i…

I disagree; I don't want to spend 10 hours traveling, I want to get from point A to point B. Unit of distance is what makes sense. Who cares if I have half the chance of dying per hour, if I have to spend ten times the hours subject to that risk? I'm not sure why you think just doubling the speed would impact the crash/unit of distance ratio. If ten planes do a 600km trip and one crashes, that's 1 crash per 6000km re…

However, long-term, your choice of A and B is strongly influenced by total travel time - so neither metric is perfect.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#190

Post by evanagon »

atonse wrote: post #152
retSava wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MCAS will likely be fixed in a way that makes it reliable and dependable. Boeing wouldn't dare anything else since there are a lot of eyes on them and how they handle this now. What worries me is not the MCAS (now), but what else might be lurking under the surface that Boeing pretends is not a problem. I don't feel confident that Boeing would accept the cost of grounding the fleet the next time something serious-…

Unless you start putting Boeing executives in jail, there is literally ZERO incentive for them not to repeat all this. In fact, the CEO and senior executives have probably already received their massive bonuses for the MAX sales. It's not like they're going to be asked to return those bonuses now with all this fiasco.

There are financial incentives if their customers choose competing products because of safety concerns.
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