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Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

nytimes.com

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Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#201

Post by bwb »

mattmanser wrote: post #189
bwb wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is a presumption, that doesn't mean it might not be something to think about and consider? I don't think I need to explain the extreme privacy view, it is alive and well in this community.

It's not extreme, it's what most people have had for millennia. New technology is deanonymizing public space, invasions of privacy previously required great effort and expense, now they can be done trivially by accessing data on your phone, or now your car. The ramifications of this haven't become clear to you because no-one important's decided to fuck your life over yet or you live as a conformist, but for many of t…

I think I am done :), you don't need to degrade the other person's intelligence to have a discussion. Or insult them. It is rude and unbecoming a member of this community.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#202

Post by gnicholas »

criddell wrote: post #177
the_snooze wrote: post #43

Something that bothers me is why are companies so casual about attaching fragile networked software to long-lived durable goods like cars? The manufacturer has no economic or legal incentive to keep that patched over the life of the hardware. This is the rotten shortsighted mindset of modern-day tech: all the benefit for the company, none of the responsibility.

Probably because that's what consumers buy. My car has Android Auto and I know eventually it's going to stop working with new phones and that sucks. On the other hand, having Waze or Google Maps and access to my podcast player and all the other neat things it can do is pretty compelling. My wife's car has a built-in GPS and maps function that is always out of date and we have to pay for updates.

You're very astute to realize that this will break eventually. Apple updated iOS a couple years back and broke the Bluetooth integration with my 2011 Subaru. Apple told me it was Subaru's fault, and to have them update my car's firmware. When I mentioned this to a service guy at the dealership, he just laughed.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#203

Post by bwb »

inetknght wrote: post #195
bwb wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, we disagree on this :). Sure, I'll take a stab at that. Data is data, it doesn't belong to someone just because they played a role in creating it. You don't care about the water company tracking your water usage or knowing how often you flush your toilet is my guess. Yet that is data you are creating. If you found out the water company was checking your dropping for drug usage and selling that to the government…

> You don't care about the water company tracking your water usage or knowing how often you flush your toilet is my guess. You would guess wrong. Water utilization metrics are a good proxy for determining the number of residents at the billing address which I consider should be private information -- even to the apartment lessor. It can also be a good proxy for determining health habits: use of laundry or dishwashing…

Well, I think we will simply have to say we don't agree on this :)

The next 50 years is going to be interesting as this debate evolves and we figure this out. I do not think it is going to end with this data is "mine" and only mine. I think it is going to end with here is this data, and here is how we divide it up to make the most use of it while providing x level of privacy. I could very well be wrong but that seems to be the bent of history when similar things emerge. First the fear, the hard reaction, then slow acceptance, and then an explosion of innovation.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#204

Post by natch »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #20
bwb wrote: post #2

Why? Why not have that data go someplace it could do real good in informing better safety systems, better traffic management and so on. Privacy is a spectrum, I am getting kinda tired how people think data about them is "theirs". In some cases maybe it should be, in other cases, it should not be. Now maybe you should have a right to see it, download it, and remove identifying markers but I am so tired of this extreme…

Hey, if the car manufacturer wants my data, fine. But they should have to buy it from me, not be allowed to build a system that gives them my data for free by default. What Tesla does in particular is extremely egregious: Even if you don't pay for Autopilot and hence can't use those sensors, Tesla still collects data using sensors you own on your car!

The data collection is opt-in.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#205

Post by zaroth »

protomyth wrote: post #128
bhauer wrote: post #10

What? > We know our smartphones, Nests and Alexas collect data, and we’ve come to accept an implicit contract: We trade personal information for convenience. With cars, we have no such expectation ... What carmakers are doing with the collected data isn’t clear. At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability. That represents tremendous end-user value, in…

At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability. and to make statements to the press during an investigation to blame you for the accident. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-crash/u-s-safety-ag...

As well they should. Until the steering whee is removed, it’s always the driver’s responsibility to operate the vehicle.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#206

Post by zaroth »

JohnFen wrote: post #143
bhauer wrote: post #10

What? > We know our smartphones, Nests and Alexas collect data, and we’ve come to accept an implicit contract: We trade personal information for convenience. With cars, we have no such expectation ... What carmakers are doing with the collected data isn’t clear. At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability. That represents tremendous end-user value, in…

> At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability. That represents tremendous end-user value, in my opinion. Not to me. That data collection is the #1 reason why I would never consider buying a Tesla (and, increasingly, other new cars as well.)

There’s a button in the UI to switch off AutoPilot data collection with no loss of functionality. When you first get the car and enroll I believe they prompt you then as well. (Opt-in!) [1]

You can also email Tesla and tell them you want to go dark in which case they shutdown the LTE connection entirely. Then you have to go get firmware updates at the dealer and of course online traffic aware maps, and streaming radio won’t work.

[1] - https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-data-autopilot-camer...

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#207

Post by zaroth »

scarejunba wrote: post #127
agentofuser wrote: post #112

If I'm a pedestrian getting my body filmed, 3D-scanned, with potential facial recognition and internal-organs-penetrating sensors added on top, _I'm_ the one who should own that data (and the right to not consent to its collection in the first place). Why are people weirded out by some Google Glass-wearing rando filming them on the sidewalk but ok for everyone behind a wheel to be suddenly promoted to a CCTV omnisens…

Yeah, also if you see me in the corner of your vision and remember that I wore a red shirt, I’m going to need you to forget that. That’s my data. If you brushed past me on the metro, I’d like you to avoid collecting my DNA off my clothes or hair. I didn’t give you that consent. So don’t do it. If you’re driving up to a pedestrian crossing and you use posture, direction, eye contact, etc. to determine if someone is at…

Careful, someone might think you’re serious.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#208

Post by dzader »

agentofuser wrote: post #102
michaelt wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car makers will get data they can use to simulate and test their self-driving cars. But car makers will also get full GPS traces - showing where you live, where you work, where you shop and every time you speed. And they'll probably get what phone was seen on bluetooth, how many seats were occupied, and what radio station was listened to. All identifiable by vehicle, and very close to identifiable by driver. Will the…

Most users are concerned, they just feel powerless to do anything about it.

lol no they aren't

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#209

Post by mixmastamyk »

bwb wrote: post #163
mixmastamyk wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but it's not your place to decide the rights of others nor their responsibility to make your car safer paid for with their privacy. If you want to be safer put on a seatbelt and helmet and drive more slowly, rather than expressing entitlement to others whereabouts, choices, and associations. History is largely a story of those without power breaking free from those who do and take advantage. Also, an inability to…

Sure it is my place, I am a member of this society and we live in a Democracy. I get my views, you get yours, lets talk about it and think about it and slowly over 50 years some stuff will get hammered out :) And, as I said, I am not convinced that all data you interact with is yours. I think data is data and it has attributes that should go other places whether you want it too or not. History and fiction are great t…

It's your opinion, not place I'd say. Minority rights cannot be ethically eliminated by a majority vote.

To be honest, while I care about privacy in general, am not concerned about every little datum myself. In a healthy reality companies and governments would give us lots of options and control, let us opt-in. But that never happens does it? They'd prefer you'd not even be aware it's happening. Only when shamed in the media does a company even attempt to provide the appearance of options.

Why do you think that is? Because they sell your information, that's why.

If it weren't that fact I wouldn't be so hardline on the subject. But, it's the reality we live in.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#210

Post by mixmastamyk »

ghaff wrote: post #144
mixmastamyk wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Siri and location services are the first things I turn off.

You're still trusting Apple to actually turn them off. I have zero reason to doubt Apple on this. However, I also have zero reason to think Alexa is transmitting even if it hasn't been woken up with the wake word.

We can't know everything for sure in this world, it's true. However, Apple has taken a stance on privacy, Amazon hasn't, and has made a name for itself in how it treats folks and where it prioritizes profit.

Now, I don't think they have mics on all the time either, as it would be impractical. But rest assured they are vacuuming up every morsel of information they can for monetization reasons. And law enforcement has been banging on the door to get access. After the next tragedy they will get through.

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