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Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

nytimes.com

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Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#161

Post by bwb »

JohnFen wrote: post #153
bwb wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of that. I think we are closer than you think on this. I do recognize the power of data, but I am tired of this communities inability to conceive that this data is and can be used for good.

> I am tired of this communities inability to conceive that this data is and can be used for good. I don't see any inability to recognize that. What I see is is a recognition that "data can be a powerful force for good" is not a valid argument for why people should be forced to reveal that data.

You are not being forced to reveal anything, that data might not be your data and thus not your decision to reveal aspects of it.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#162

Post by bwb »

JohnFen wrote: post #151
bwb wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a symbiotic relationship :) I do not think just because you are involved in creating data that means it is yours. When you give data to the census that isn't your data... when you click an ad and buy something that data isn't your data... I just don't get this notion that data is yours because you are involved in its creation. There is data about you that might be private or personal and should have protections…

> the notion that data you have a role in creating is yours seems extreme. The notion that it's OK for me to be forced to send such data to others seems extreme to me.

Like I said, you are not being forced, it isn't your data to start with is a different POV to approach this from. You are stuck in the mindset that because you are somehow related to the data you get ownership.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#163

Post by bwb »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #156
bwb wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not chiding in any way, I apologize as my point must have not been well written if that is how it landed. Sorry :( We are not in 1984, and that is fiction. I fully acknowledge I have not fully thought through every branch of the problem, but what I don't want to see is this idea that all data is at the hands of the person who played a role in creating it. Some data needs to go back to the company and society if…

Ok, but it's not your place to decide the rights of others nor their responsibility to make your car safer paid for with their privacy. If you want to be safer put on a seatbelt and helmet and drive more slowly, rather than expressing entitlement to others whereabouts, choices, and associations. History is largely a story of those without power breaking free from those who do and take advantage. Also, an inability to…

Sure it is my place, I am a member of this society and we live in a Democracy. I get my views, you get yours, lets talk about it and think about it and slowly over 50 years some stuff will get hammered out :)

And, as I said, I am not convinced that all data you interact with is yours. I think data is data and it has attributes that should go other places whether you want it too or not.

History and fiction are great tools to explore ideas. So maybe just try exploring the idea that knowledge and advancement of society depends on a certain amount of data to float free. If we clamp down too hard it might paralyze advancement.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#164

Post by stuart78 »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #122
agentofuser wrote: post #112

If I'm a pedestrian getting my body filmed, 3D-scanned, with potential facial recognition and internal-organs-penetrating sensors added on top, _I'm_ the one who should own that data (and the right to not consent to its collection in the first place). Why are people weirded out by some Google Glass-wearing rando filming them on the sidewalk but ok for everyone behind a wheel to be suddenly promoted to a CCTV omnisens…

>Why are people weirded out by some Google Glass-wearing rando filming them on the sidewalk but ok for everyone behind a wheel to be suddenly promoted to a CCTV omnisensing recorder? Pedestrians are promoting dense and walk-able cities, environmentally sustainable transportation, healthy lifestyles and are generally virtuous. Drivers are wasting space, killing the planet, promoting a sedentary lifestyle and are gener…

I think it is even simpler than this in that most people don't realize they are being tracked in this way. It is easy to seem hypocritical when you are simply ignorant of a potentially parallel case.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#165

Post by stuart78 »

One thing I'm confused on from this article is which car brands might be more or less egregious in this dimension. For example, I drive a VW, and my car is Car-Net capable, though I have not enabled the service. Is Car-Net (or some similar service) collecting data despite my not having enabled it? Clearly the car has the ability to transmit data since Car-Net is an option.

Secondarily, is data transmitted during tune ups?

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#166

Post by abdullahkhalids »

Phlarp wrote: post #123
agentofuser wrote: post #112

If I'm a pedestrian getting my body filmed, 3D-scanned, with potential facial recognition and internal-organs-penetrating sensors added on top, _I'm_ the one who should own that data (and the right to not consent to its collection in the first place). Why are people weirded out by some Google Glass-wearing rando filming them on the sidewalk but ok for everyone behind a wheel to be suddenly promoted to a CCTV omnisens…

Expectation of privacy. Roads are mostly public, Google Glass can go all kinds of places

You will absolutely get into some kind of trouble (social or legal) if you put a camera on a sidewalk and start filming whoever goes by. On the other hand CCTV cameras don't receive any flak. Society is usually not obviously consistent about privacy matters. The ultimate determining factor is what seems creepy vs what is necessary. So its entirely possible that some societies might decide that the video taping done by self-driving cars is sufficiently creepy to ban.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#167

Post by salawat »

kevas wrote: post #106
leptoniscool wrote: post #83

Isn't the logical next step to collect massive data from airplanes, which should be easier to automate too. But the limiting factor is still trust.

...this has been happening for a long time already.

Under the radar. Without visibility.

How does it come as a surprise when things that were only recognized as having gone on underneath layer after layer of technical jargon are finally brought to general public awareness?

You don't get in trouble for doing things, you get in trouble for getting caught doing them. It's been a long time in coming, but awareness is finally starting to hit tipping points in meaningful ways.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#168

Post by zlsa »

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #166
Phlarp wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expectation of privacy. Roads are mostly public, Google Glass can go all kinds of places

You will absolutely get into some kind of trouble (social or legal) if you put a camera on a sidewalk and start filming whoever goes by. On the other hand CCTV cameras don't receive any flak. Society is usually not obviously consistent about privacy matters. The ultimate determining factor is what seems creepy vs what is necessary. So its entirely possible that some societies might decide that the video taping done b…

> You will absolutely get into some kind of trouble (social or legal) if you put a camera on a sidewalk and start filming whoever goes by.

IANAL.

You should not get into any legal trouble if you're doing it by yourself. There is no expectation of privacy in public spaces in the US.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#169

Post by JohnFen »

bwb wrote: post #161
JohnFen wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am tired of this communities inability to conceive that this data is and can be used for good. I don't see any inability to recognize that. What I see is is a recognition that "data can be a powerful force for good" is not a valid argument for why people should be forced to reveal that data.

You are not being forced to reveal anything, that data might not be your data and thus not your decision to reveal aspects of it.

I think the crux of this issue is what is or is not "my" data.

I think that any data that is generated as a result of my actions, or by machines that I own, is my data for all intents and purposes.

I understand that you disagree with that. That's entirely fair, and I'm not trying to change your thinking on this. What I'm trying to understand is on what basis you are deciding what is or is not my data.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#170

Post by JohnFen »

bwb wrote: post #160
JohnFen wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why do you think I should be forced to reveal anything?

You are not being forced to reveal anything :). That is coming from your standing POV that this data is yours. Look at it from the perspective the data is not anyone's to start. The data is something you played a role in creating but you do not own. Next, how do you decide who controls and gets access to which parts of the data and what are the reasons behind that? Data that identifies you might own and keep private.…

> You are not being forced to reveal anything

You are arguing that I should be, though. Whether or not I "own" the data is irrelevant to this point. If I don't have a choice about it being revealed, then I am being forced to reveal it.

> Data that identifies you might own and keep private.

Given that very powerful databases and data mining technologies are commonly employed, I think that this category covers the vast majority of all data that is created as a result of my actions or the actions of machines that I own.

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