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Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

nytimes.com

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Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#121

Post by bwb »

danso wrote: post #98
dominotw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Signing away your rights to privacy should not ever be a requirement to obtain transportation. Lets talk about this when this is actually a thing. Creating preemptive 'not allowed' laws would be throwing baby out of bathwater.

The U.S. federal gov’t, via HIPAA, took a stance on what health providers could do with patient data, rather than settling for a stance of “just find the nearest hospital with your preferred terms and conditions” or “keep in mind you don’t need to see a doctor”

Well said!

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#122

Post by dsfyu404ed »

agentofuser wrote: post #112

If I'm a pedestrian getting my body filmed, 3D-scanned, with potential facial recognition and internal-organs-penetrating sensors added on top, _I'm_ the one who should own that data (and the right to not consent to its collection in the first place). Why are people weirded out by some Google Glass-wearing rando filming them on the sidewalk but ok for everyone behind a wheel to be suddenly promoted to a CCTV omnisens…

>Why are people weirded out by some Google Glass-wearing rando filming them on the sidewalk but ok for everyone behind a wheel to be suddenly promoted to a CCTV omnisensing recorder?

Pedestrians are promoting dense and walk-able cities, environmentally sustainable transportation, healthy lifestyles and are generally virtuous. Drivers are wasting space, killing the planet, promoting a sedentary lifestyle and are generally evil.

Yes I'm being a bit absurd and over the top here but the point is that most people aren't disciplined enough to stick to their principals when a group they don't like is the one getting screwed.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#123

Post by Phlarp »

agentofuser wrote: post #112

If I'm a pedestrian getting my body filmed, 3D-scanned, with potential facial recognition and internal-organs-penetrating sensors added on top, _I'm_ the one who should own that data (and the right to not consent to its collection in the first place). Why are people weirded out by some Google Glass-wearing rando filming them on the sidewalk but ok for everyone behind a wheel to be suddenly promoted to a CCTV omnisens…

Expectation of privacy. Roads are mostly public, Google Glass can go all kinds of places

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#124

Post by bwb »

danso wrote: post #94
bwb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but that also doesn't mean the data can't be used when stripped of identifiers to improve the product and society. I don't want cell phone companies selling my specific location, but I also don't want them to not get data from my phone to improve their services where there are drop outs or other issues.

You started this thread from the position that the data-logging device (and its manufacturer) is ultimately the data’s owner. So please justify to the folks in the “extreme privacy movement” why you think the data-owning companies should have any obligation to follow your various preferences for how your data cannot be used.

No, I started this thread by saying that data is not always owned purely by the person playing a role in its creation.

I am tired of the extreme movement that all data I have a role in creating is mine, and I should have full control of it. I am worried about the ramifications on society and our ability to improve products and the way society/civilization works. I think Europe has taken some good steps toward that goal, but like any first try, it also has some stupid parts. Time and debate will improve it.

I'd like to see us start crafting legislation that tries to find that middle ground between the data that should be private and the data that can be used to improve the product and society and thus make sure it is available.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#125

Post by bwb »

michaelt wrote: post #96
bwb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Semantics :), the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it. If the data plays a role in improving services or life for everyone let the data serve its role. We still need strong regulations and gov agencies to enforce/protect, but I just don't see the point of claiming everything is your data blah blah.

the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it. If I take a photo with my Canon camera, Canon doesn't own the photo even though they manufactured the device.

Agreed.

If the shutter fails to open to spec, would you want them to know about it and have data to improve it via a firmware update or next version of the product?

Please read my post, and really read it :). I am not saying all data is theirs, I am saying it depends on the type of data and I don't want to see no data being shared.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#126

Post by lmkg »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #57
stefan_ wrote: post #18

I'm all for retaining ownership of your Spotify playlists, Bluetooth synced contact list and location data. But given the number of vehicular deaths, I'm all for having authorities access blackbox-style data like pedal state, acceleration vectors etc. that some controllers already keep around. If you are operating a 100 kW machine in public, how you do it isn't a privacy concern.

>I'm all for retaining ownership of your Spotify playlists, Bluetooth synced contact list and location data. >But given the number of vehicular deaths... Ah the good 'ol "my principals go out the window when $emotionally_loaded_topic is involved." Nobody, not the insurance company, the DMV, nor the people debugging the software in prod deserves access to ones data without express and informed (i.e. not a million word…

Death is just an "emotionally loaded topic"? I think it's perfectly reasonable to have principles, but value those principles less than human life. In fact, I wish more people did that.

There are plenty of cases where we can and do make exceptions to personal privacy for public benefit, under certain guidelines. E.g. medical data is one of the few things that's actually private by law in the US, but we still find way to make aggregate data available for epidemiological studies. Location data is absolutely sensitive data, but there are valid reasons to make subsets of it available for the public benefit.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#127

Post by scarejunba »

agentofuser wrote: post #112

If I'm a pedestrian getting my body filmed, 3D-scanned, with potential facial recognition and internal-organs-penetrating sensors added on top, _I'm_ the one who should own that data (and the right to not consent to its collection in the first place). Why are people weirded out by some Google Glass-wearing rando filming them on the sidewalk but ok for everyone behind a wheel to be suddenly promoted to a CCTV omnisens…

Yeah, also if you see me in the corner of your vision and remember that I wore a red shirt, I’m going to need you to forget that. That’s my data.

If you brushed past me on the metro, I’d like you to avoid collecting my DNA off my clothes or hair. I didn’t give you that consent. So don’t do it.

If you’re driving up to a pedestrian crossing and you use posture, direction, eye contact, etc. to determine if someone is attempting to cross the road or not, you should first ask for consent.

This non-consensual invasion of my data, of what is me, stored in other people’s memories, some of whom are sex offenders, is outrageous. The fact that people (even on HN) say things like “I saw him at DEFCON” is unacceptable. Who gave them the right to broadcast my behaviour?

The real problem is that people have been violating our privacy non-stop. I am certain that at least one sex offender has seen a child, stored a snapshot of him in his memory, and then gone home to have a wank. That should be illegal.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#128

Post by protomyth »

bhauer wrote: post #10

What? > We know our smartphones, Nests and Alexas collect data, and we’ve come to accept an implicit contract: We trade personal information for convenience. With cars, we have no such expectation ... What carmakers are doing with the collected data isn’t clear. At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability. That represents tremendous end-user value, in…

At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability.

and to make statements to the press during an investigation to blame you for the accident.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-crash/u-s-safety-ag...

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#129

Post by inetknght »

bwb wrote: post #113
inetknght wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong.

Neither of us is wrong :), but neither of us is probably right. Your full stop refusal to see the other side is worrisome to me. There are other viewpoints out there, I'd appreciate if you try to understand them. I understand yours but if you react with stubborn hostility, I will mirror it :)

I can see how you might think I'm not seeing other viewpoints. Instead, perhaps you should see that I am rejecting other viewpoints. And I can see how it would worry you: your comments worry me too.

So let me re-frame our conversation. Let me re-root it to something that I will not budge on:

If I buy a device then I own the data on it. If I own a device then I own the data collected by it. If I own data, then I have every right to refuse to allow that data to be accessed by anyone other than myself.

If you want access to the data to be a precondition of my use of the device, then do not pretend you sold the device to me. At best you are providing a lease.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#130

Post by bwb »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #86
bwb wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that sensitive data? I am going to be a tad provocative here and hope people can dig deep and think about this :) Facebook already has this, and most people are sharing this in the public sphere. I understand the worry and damage that can be done, but I feel like we are moving from a 1950s model of hide it all and pretend you a perfect, to more of a this is who I am and let me live my life as long as it doesn'…

That's a very naïve and privileged position. It boils down to "I don't have a problem, so no one else does." You'll probably learn one day you are more vulnerable than you realize. Pick up a history book in the meantime.

It is and I am an old history major so yes I am aware :).

I am not advocating for a total loss of privacy, merely that it is is a spectrum, and technology seems to be driving an acceleration of what is socially acceptable. And, that might be a good thing long term.

How do you change people's acceptance of things they are afraid of? You show them they don't need to be. You don't do that by hiding and pretending you are something else. You show them that you are x and y and still a good normal person. It can get you killed, it can lose your jobs, it can lose you friends, it can lose you your family. It is an incredible sacrifice that millions of people in the USA make every year. They do it for themselves, but also for all the other people that are x or y and who they want to see raised without all that bullshit.

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