Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#91

Post by mixmastamyk » Tue, May 21, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #54

wool_gather wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But. We haven't actually achieved that state of grace yet, so in the meantime, in some times and places people actually can be in danger because of who they are. Perhaps you have seen the names Muhlaysia Booker or Jamal Kashoggi in the news recently.

Yes, and I have lived in some of those places. I understand these concerns very well.

Then it follows you'll want to stop making critical and naïve comments of those that need and want the choice to protect themselves.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#92

Post by ggg2 » Tue, May 21, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

davemp wrote: post #47

js2 wrote: post #15

> Modern cars collect as much as 25 gigabytes of data per hour. Links to this McKinsey study as a source: https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/... Which says: > Today’s car has the computing power of 20 personal computers, features about 100 million lines of programming code, and processes up to 25 gigabytes of data an hour. McKinsey doesn't cite any sources. But more importantly, processing 25…

This is just using different scales to mislead. 25GB/hr is about 7MB/s which isn't even the computing power of a cell phone.

7MBps sounds alrigth for anything consuming even a single source of video. it migth process that locally (lane departure, auto braking auto pilot, etc) and just upload the usage (e.g. how many times in the month you departed lane)

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#93

Post by schintan » Tue, May 21, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

unrelated to this particular article, but it seems nytimes coverage is tending more and more towards tech Luddite category these days. It is one thing to inform the readers but they seem to be bent on spreading fear about all things tech.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#94

Post by danso » Tue, May 21, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #62

sokoloff wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attending AA meetings, being treated for an STD or at a cancer center, and consistently leaving a bar at closing time are all perfectly legal, yet something people may wish to be able to exercise significant privacy over.

Agreed, but that also doesn't mean the data can't be used when stripped of identifiers to improve the product and society. I don't want cell phone companies selling my specific location, but I also don't want them to not get data from my phone to improve their services where there are drop outs or other issues.

You started this thread from the position that the data-logging device (and its manufacturer) is ultimately the data’s owner. So please justify to the folks in the “extreme privacy movement” why you think the data-owning companies should have any obligation to follow your various preferences for how your data cannot be used.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#95

Post by JamesBarney » Tue, May 21, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #16

bhauer wrote: post #10

What? > We know our smartphones, Nests and Alexas collect data, and we’ve come to accept an implicit contract: We trade personal information for convenience. With cars, we have no such expectation ... What carmakers are doing with the collected data isn’t clear. At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability. That represents tremendous end-user value, in…

The data collected by phones are used to train systems like web/voice search, voice translation, and routing algorithms, all which ostensibly (or, at least, purportedly) benefit billions of end users on a daily basis. I don’t see how you can say Tesla’s case is so obviously a more justified example. In any case, this article is about all cars — Tesla vehicles are still a sliver of the user base.

I think it's more valuable for two reasons. One the end result is more valuables, I'd trade all of those services for self-driving cars. And second I think other types of data are easier to get than driving data.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#96

Post by michaelt » Tue, May 21, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #14

danso wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am getting kinda tired how people think data about them is "theirs". Huh? How is users wanting to control the personal data they create (e.g. telemetrics) an “extreme” movement?

Semantics :), the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it. If the data plays a role in improving services or life for everyone let the data serve its role. We still need strong regulations and gov agencies to enforce/protect, but I just don't see the point of claiming everything is your data blah blah.

  the device created the data, they
  played a role but I don't see why
  that means they control it.

If I take a photo with my Canon camera, Canon doesn't own the photo even though they manufactured the device.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#97

Post by mixmastamyk » Tue, May 21, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #76

bwb wrote: post #2

Why? Why not have that data go someplace it could do real good in informing better safety systems, better traffic management and so on. Privacy is a spectrum, I am getting kinda tired how people think data about them is "theirs". In some cases maybe it should be, in other cases, it should not be. Now maybe you should have a right to see it, download it, and remove identifying markers but I am so tired of this extreme…

I don’t think it is extreme to ask for consent. It sounds like you would be ok with your car collecting data about you and sending it to the car company. That’s totally fine. I would not be ok with this, and that should be totally fine too! It is a personal preference. Why is it such a big deal to simply ask for consent from the user? Real consent— not the “by using this product you agree” joke we usually get. Softwa…

Because it would reduce profits and therefore executive bonuses.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#98

Post by danso » Tue, May 21, 2019, 4:28 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #56

inetknght wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you mean by 'not allowed'. you have the option to not buy tsla if its such a concern to you. This is a dangerous way of thinking. Transportation is a requirement for getting ahead in life. Signing away your rights to privacy should not ever be a requirement to obtain transportation.

> Signing away your rights to privacy should not ever be a requirement to obtain transportation. Lets talk about this when this is actually a thing. Creating preemptive 'not allowed' laws would be throwing baby out of bathwater.

The U.S. federal gov’t, via HIPAA, took a stance on what health providers could do with patient data, rather than settling for a stance of “just find the nearest hospital with your preferred terms and conditions” or “keep in mind you don’t need to see a doctor”

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#99

Post by Animats » Tue, May 21, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

bhauer wrote: post #10

What? > We know our smartphones, Nests and Alexas collect data, and we’ve come to accept an implicit contract: We trade personal information for convenience. With cars, we have no such expectation ... What carmakers are doing with the collected data isn’t clear. At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability. That represents tremendous end-user value, in…

At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability. That represents tremendous end-user value, in my opinion.

Musk has claimed that. Whether it's doing any good remains to be seen. Large amounts of data from normal driving are probably good for training lane keeping, but not that useful for handling emergency situations. Teslas are still running into crossing semitrailers after three years of "data collection".

Teslas upload about a gigabyte a month.[1] Here's some trip logging data, from 2017.[2] Trips are logged in straightforward XML. Other stuff, not clear.

[1] https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-autopilot-fleet-data-sharing...

[2] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/ap2-back-to-using-on...

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#100

Post by lifeisstillgood » Tue, May 21, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

I think that the ideas of Personally identifying information and Personally generated information need to be clearer. Information that exists because I pass through the digital world is still about me.

Then we can envisage some changes in the law - the presumption in law should be that data about or generated by me should be owned by me - in the same way copyright is presumed to belong to me.

If we then add in a public commons right to access such data royalty free (ie health researchers get a free pass at my data presuming they follow normal protocols) and chuck in any commercial or other licence I might grant is time limited an automatically runs out after a year and needs to be renewed with my consent, and I think we can sort this data privacy problem out.

(in short - I agree )