Live data from Hacker News

Federated Learning

federated.withgoogle.com

61–70 of 77 posts

Re: Federated Learning

#61
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the way it works at all (see Secure Aggregation). There are a number of techniques out there that permit privacy safe services and learning, like Differential Privacy, Federated Learning, and there's even Deep Neural Nets using homomorphic computing (e.g. https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.05189 ) How about we lay off the conspiracy theories every time any new paper is published.

"Secure aggregation" doesn't mean a thing, because I would argue, as I did in another comment already, that "you" are not "your device".

Secure aggregation isn’t meaningless, but you’re right that it’s the wrong tool for the problem you’re talking about. The right tool is differential privacy.

Differential privacy is exactly meant for this, in fact. Differential privacy adds a certain amount of randomly-generated noise to client inputs. The result is that, statistically speaking, it’s impossible to tell the difference between a model with your data in it and a model without your data in it.

Arguably the reason the comic doesn’t mention differential privacy is that it’s neither new nor invented at Google. Or maybe just because it’s not technically part of federated learning. But the “federated learning at scale” paper Google put out mentions it, and says they have implemented DP techniques.

Re: Federated Learning

#62
post #60

Linked paper on using this for Google Keyboard ( https://arxiv.org/pdf/1903.10635.pdf ) highlights that there are nevertheless still privacy issues with this approach: While Federated Learning removes the need to upload raw user material — here OOV words — to the server, the privacy risk of unintended memorization still exists (as demonstrated in (Carlini et al., 2018)). Such risk can be mitigated, usually with some…

You’re not wrong, but it does say those privacy risks can be mitigated with differential privacy. That McMahan et al. paper (which is also Google) makes the accuracy cost seem low.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.06963

Re: Federated Learning

#63
post #59

My gut feeling tells me not to believe their promises that it's impossible to deduce the data from the model updates. That there should be attacks. My stylistic criticism is that they portray white men in a demeaning way that they would never dare do to any other group. edited to make a weaker claim

Do you have a specific technical criticism of the secure aggregation protocol? That’s what’s supposed to make it impossible to deduce the data from model updates. Or is your concern something else?

Re: Federated Learning

#64
post #63
post #59

My gut feeling tells me not to believe their promises that it's impossible to deduce the data from the model updates. That there should be attacks. My stylistic criticism is that they portray white men in a demeaning way that they would never dare do to any other group. edited to make a weaker claim

Do you have a specific technical criticism of the secure aggregation protocol? That’s what’s supposed to make it impossible to deduce the data from model updates. Or is your concern something else?

I hadn't really read it at that point. It more seemed like a too big achievement for me to believe that anyone could solve.

One issue with their approach I found while causally browsing is

"for the proof against active adversaries, we assume that there exists a public-key infras-tructure (PKI), which guarantees to users that messages they receive came from other users (and not the server). Without this assumption, the server can perform a Sybil attack on the users in RoundShareKeys"

Basically assume there is some trustworthy entity that solves Sybil attacks. I don't think such an entity exists. So question is how they solve that in practice.

Re: Federated Learning

#65
Federated learning is a potentially really great idea, but it's important to be upfront about its limitations. Just because I can't prove that a piece of data came from your device doesn't mean that a machine learned model trained on that data isn't violating your privacy.

For example, say we deployed federated learning to train a predictive language model, and allowed it to learn from emails, say, inside Google. Looking at what the model predicts when you type "Here at Google our next secret project is..." could very likely reveal something they wouldn't want widely revealed.

Re: Federated Learning

#66
post #61
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Secure aggregation" doesn't mean a thing, because I would argue, as I did in another comment already, that "you" are not "your device".

Secure aggregation isn’t meaningless, but you’re right that it’s the wrong tool for the problem you’re talking about. The right tool is differential privacy. Differential privacy is exactly meant for this, in fact. Differential privacy adds a certain amount of randomly-generated noise to client inputs. The result is that, statistically speaking, it’s impossible to tell the difference between a model with your data in…

This one is interesting, I'll have to read about that. Right now it doesn't seem to make any sense to me. I mean, if statistically model w/ my data is no different from the model w/o my data, then by definition it must be no better or worse. If it would truly be the case, there wouldn't be any reason to even include the result of such training, would it?

Re: Federated Learning

#67
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can put as many words as you want in quotes, but if you can point out a specific flaw in the secure aggregation paper, either in the algorithm description, or the math, it would be taken a lot more seriously. It's like your responding to the Bitcoin paper by saying "proof of work" doesn't mean a thing because "hashing" isn't "money". There are papers published, critique those specifically, instead of relying on a…

It is somehow understandable for a Google employee to take such a defensive position, but you either didn't read or didn't try to understand what I'm saying. I don't believe there is anything wrong with federated learning or that there are any problems with "secure aggregation" you are so fondly referring to. It's just that they don't mean shit, because, as I said several times already, you don't need to know that so…

Well, I've been working on crypto and privacy since before the Web, 25+ years before I joined Google, released some of the first anonymizing proxy servers on the internet, designed one of the first mix-net PGP remailer networks, etc.

I wouldn't be critiquing your response if you had something a little less handwavey to say. When people point out flaws in protocols, I like to see specific exploit examples, like the kind you'd put into a Spectre/Meltdown Advisory.

If you said "out of order speculative execution in CPUs might eventually allow exploits", I may even have vaguely agreed, but without a concrete criticism, it's more of an "uneasy feeling" you have.

I can make loose arguments too. Everything you do in this word leaks entropy. Your information is entangled with other people, leaving a wake behind you from the moment you're born. There's a gazillion side channels hanging off of you. So learning information about you is pretty much a given. The question is, is it relevant or important information? There's a huge difference between "learning something", "learning something sensitive about me (that I share with a large number of other people)" and "learning something sensitive about me that's individually traceable to me"

Most people won't care if a Federated Learning model, using data from your phone, learns that people who stay up late, and search for Coke, also end up with diabetes, anymore than a double blind study learns about the risks of smoking and lung cancer -- the doctors have learned information about you (you're a smoker, and you have/don't have lung cancer), but they haven't learned that you, krick, are a smoker.

The whole point of differential privacy, federated learning, and other techniques, is that aggregate statistics, and aggregate models can be learned without any personally traceable information.

Now, you could argue that somewhere, deep within the logical depth of the weights of a DNN is some kind of personal information that could be deanonymized, but this is like a claim that you found a weakness in a hash function -- until you show it, it's just a claim, and mathematics and security research is full of wrong claims on both sides.

Re: Federated Learning

#68
I'm genuinely still unsure if this is a parody or not. The first half of the comic just describes Google's business model and the second seems to be trying to outsource the cost of G/TPUs to the end user. Then at the end they go bankrupt and (presumably) sell their control over the data to a vulture fund.

None of this addresses the fundamental problem of advertising companies, once people learn what they're doing they just want them to feck off and leave them alone, without any regard for future promises.

Re: Federated Learning

#69

I'm genuinely still unsure if this is a parody or not. The first half of the comic just describes Google's business model and the second seems to be trying to outsource the cost of G/TPUs to the end user. Then at the end they go bankrupt and (presumably) sell their control over the data to a vulture fund. None of this addresses the fundamental problem of advertising companies, once people learn what they're doing the…

It's no joke. https://federated.withgoogle.com/#learn

Re: Federated Learning

#70
post #66
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Secure aggregation isn’t meaningless, but you’re right that it’s the wrong tool for the problem you’re talking about. The right tool is differential privacy. Differential privacy is exactly meant for this, in fact. Differential privacy adds a certain amount of randomly-generated noise to client inputs. The result is that, statistically speaking, it’s impossible to tell the difference between a model with your data in…

This one is interesting, I'll have to read about that. Right now it doesn't seem to make any sense to me. I mean, if statistically model w/ my data is no different from the model w/o my data, then by definition it must be no better or worse. If it would truly be the case, there wouldn't be any reason to even include the result of such training, would it?

I definitely recommend reading more about it because I’m not the best at explaining it. But differential privacy (without federated learning) is what Apple has been doing.
Post reply on HN