Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords • Hacker News Board

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#201

Post by soulofmischief » Fri, May 10, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

setquk wrote: post #129

levosmetalo wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who’s the bad one? Hmm And you basically did a disservice to all his future tenants by not reporting him to the police after being caught by you illegally accessing your home and destroying your property? By not reacting you basically silently allowed him to keep doing this. I would understand that he had some kind of power over you and you were afraid to react and report him, but you choose to confront him by bein…

Actually it's not quite that easy. If you think anyone even gives a crap about this sort of stuff then you're mistaken. Even today. Firstly, I spoke to the police and they said they couldn't do anything because I likely couldn't prove he was snooping and couldn't prove that it wasn't against the terms and it wouldn't be worthy of their time investigating it and it was probably a civil or contractual issue. "go see a…

Oh screw that. Come into my home when I'm not there, and enter my 2 year old daughter's room? If the police don't see that as a crime, it's vigilante time. The chances your landlord wasn't attempting some creepy perverted shit is zero to none.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#202

Post by fwip » Fri, May 10, 2019, 2:33 PM UTC

sjwright wrote: post #142

robaato wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a recent tenancy agreement I've seen: g) Permit the Landlord or the Landlord's agents on reasonable notice and at reasonable hours to enter the premises to view the state and condition thereof and if necessary to carry out repairs, alterations or other works. s) Not to change or install any locks on any doors or windows of the premises or to make duplicate keys thereto and to return all such keys to the Landlord…

The first and second terms are unpalatable but could be tolerated under limited circumstances. I would look at concealing a remote-monitored security camera by the front door to catch and alert any unwelcome visitors. But that third term is a deal-breaker. Eight weeks of living in an unsafe, insecure home with no privacy? I'm not paying rent for that.

About six years ago I had to deal with this. The guy showing our place kept forgetting to lock our door afterwards - one time even leaving it ajar.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#203

Post by micmil » Fri, May 10, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #79

sc11 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the ability to immediately remove previous tenants access to the home This doesn't really require a smart lock. In Germany it's common to replace the lock immediately once you rent a place and put the original lock back in when you move out. This prevents the landlord, previous tenants and whoever else might still have keys from entering without your permission.

Replacing locks is typically very expensive unless you have the expertise to do it yourself though? One can easily pay £500 ($700 USD) to change the locks on a home in the UK.

It depends entirely on the type of locks involved.

The majority of residential homes in the US have semi-standardized lock bore and setback sizes so most anything you pick up for dirt cheap at your local home improvement retailer will bolt right on. I'm not sure if there's the same level of standardization in the UK, but in most of Europe locks are of a design that allows you to replace the cylinder with a couple of screws from the inside. The locks themselves typically cost more but the labor is pretty much nonexistent.

The only way you'd need to pay that much to have locks changed is if you're needing to do actual physical work on the door or jamb itself.

Or if your locksmith is overcharging you because you don't know any better.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#204

Post by balabaster » Fri, May 10, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

whttheuuu wrote: post #188

balabaster wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never occurred to me not to change the locks. The minute I start paying rent, I always saw it as my home. Upon viewing the place, I make explicitly clear that I expect it to be cleaned and anything that's broken shall be fixed prior to my taking possession and that I will consider the contract null and void if it's not. I ensure this is written into the contract so that if it's not taken care of, the contract is n…

Uhm yeah, this is illegal in most states. And in case of emergency (fire, flood, gas/water leak, etc.) where a landlord is unable to get in - guess who's going to pay for damages?

If this happened in a property you owned, the fire department would kick down the door anyway. This is no different. Why would a landlord even know your property is on fire before the fire department kicked the door down? Emergency services would be there long before the landlord even knew anything was amiss... and there's a high statistical probability that it was me that called emergency services in the first place and the door would be unlocked. I'm not calling my landlord first, shit needs to be dealt with now, not when the landlord finally checks their voicemail.

So this argument makes little sense to me.

And as another commenter notes - that's what renter's insurance is for.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#205

Post by micmil » Fri, May 10, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

mehrdadn wrote: post #12

What happens to such a smart lock if it loses access to electric power (or internet access if it needs one)? Is there a key backup? Do you get locked out of your home if you don't have said backup key with you?

Any GOOD smart lock that you'd want to put on your house will have key backup. You basically have to be a complete douche to install a keyless system in a residential application.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#206

Post by School-Cotton » Fri, May 10, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

hugi wrote: post #189

criley2 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer but in many states these liability claims go through a system which determines the % of liability for each party. A tenant illegally locking their landlord out and causing delay of several hours for a time-sensitive emergency would almost assuredly get a lot more % liability blame than a tenant who properly gave their landlord a copy of the key and who was able to give access to the plumber immediate…

"A tenant illegally locking their landlord out". Where the fuck do you live, 11th century Europe?

Can you elaborate on what you’re talking about?

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#207

Post by RHSeeger » Fri, May 10, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

whttheuuu wrote: post #188

balabaster wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never occurred to me not to change the locks. The minute I start paying rent, I always saw it as my home. Upon viewing the place, I make explicitly clear that I expect it to be cleaned and anything that's broken shall be fixed prior to my taking possession and that I will consider the contract null and void if it's not. I ensure this is written into the contract so that if it's not taken care of, the contract is n…

Uhm yeah, this is illegal in most states. And in case of emergency (fire, flood, gas/water leak, etc.) where a landlord is unable to get in - guess who's going to pay for damages?

> And in case of emergency (fire, flood, gas/water leak, etc.) where a landlord is unable to get in - guess who's going to pay for damages?

Renter's insurance?

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#208

Post by CydeWeys » Fri, May 10, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

Insanity wrote: post #191

CydeWeys wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wood is an excellent material for construction. And yes, construction code does require fire prevention, which is typically achieved using non-flammable drywall. You're at much more risk in a fire from the contents of your house burning (like wooden furniture) than the house itself. Wood is also stronger than masonry against earthquakes and some other threats. Also, the structure itself is a depreciating asset. It's…

You make some good points, as I said I was just making assumption. It's definitely the land that is valuable, but you want a long lasting house with a minimum of renovations due to 'wear by environment'. My thought (assumption) was that it'd be better in our normal brick houses. But fair enough, it's probably less bad than I thought :)

How long do you need a house to last? 10,000 years? Wood that is protected from the environment will last essentially indefinitely on human timelines. The roof trusses on Notre Dame were 800 years old and showing no sign of stopping (modulo the lack of modern fire protection anyway). Protect wood from being exposed to the elements with a roof and siding and it'll last as long as you need it to. The wood in American houses is on the inside; it's not exposed to the elements like on the shanties/shacks you're perhaps thinking about.

Also, building a whole house out of brick takes a lot of labor. It's simpler (and cheaper) to frame the house with wood and then clad it with siding.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#209

Post by fwip » Fri, May 10, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

> can provide other people with a pseudo-legitimate access to it

I agree with the rest of your points, but I'm not sure that this is meaningfully different than them loaning out a copy of your key.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#210

Post by simonebrunozzi » Fri, May 10, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Smart, and this should be the default.