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Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

cnet.com

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Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#21

Post by Sharlin »

hansjorg wrote: post #14
lucb1e wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds How many training seconds are required to be able to manage an average of 30 seconds? Or do you mean destructive? If yes, is it loud? Maybe the American locks are different (doubt it) but as a casual lockpicker I can say it's not as trivial as you make it sound. Or if you're talking about destructive methods rather than picking, that's still better than an el…

See lock bumping: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_bumping "Lock bumping takes only an instant to open the lock. The lock is not visibly damaged, although the force of the bump can leave an indentation on the front of the cylinder."

Around here pin-tumbler locks haven't been used for house/apartment doors in several decades. Even the "classic" Abloy disk-detainer lock introduced in 1907 [1] is practically bump-proof, and more modern versions such as the Exec, never mind the Protec2 [2], are nigh impossible to pick without considerable skill, special-purpose tools and state-of-the-art knowledge.

> The Protec's design enables it to resist a variety of common attacks, particularly lockpicking. There are no confirmed non-destructive attacks against Protec cylinders in the public domain.[2]

See the whole Abloy family at [3].

[1] http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Abloy_Classic

[2] http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Abloy_Protec

[3] https://securitysnobs.com/item_images/4323f39aa0570924212c3c...

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#22

Post by adwww »

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left.

I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#23

Post by pjc50 »

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance.

The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that.

On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide other people with a pseudo-legitimate access to it. I don't know what the tenancy law is in NY, but in the UK this is supposed to require the permission of the tenant except in an emergency.

(Does anyone have the search expertise to find the actual case from NY public records?)

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#24

Post by pjc50 »

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Good idea - I did this when I bought my house but didn't bother on rental properties. "Euro Cylinder" locks are standardised and really easy to change.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#25

Post by lawlessone »

_v7gu wrote: post #19
mehrdadn wrote: post #12

What happens to such a smart lock if it loses access to electric power (or internet access if it needs one)? Is there a key backup? Do you get locked out of your home if you don't have said backup key with you?

My current apartment has a "smart lock" system for entry into the building. The system becomes unresponsive with no electricity, which means you're locked out. But you can kick open the door anyways, so at least that's an alternative to being locked out.

Jesus, what if that failed in a fire?

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#26

Post by est31 »

pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

> charged, working smartphone

Not just that, you also have to install a proprietary piece of software onto the phone from a third party and accept their TOS.

> can provide other people with a pseudo-legitimate access to it

I think in the news story the smart locks were only installed on the front door not on the doors to the homes. If the landlord installed them on the doors for the homes as well, that would be very troubling indeed.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#27

Post by dsfyu404ed »

lucb1e wrote: post #7
Y_Y wrote: post #5

Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds, and what I've seen of "smart" locks isn't much better. I think if you were really serious about preventing intruders (rather than discouraging opportunism) you need alarms and cameras and someone with a big stick.

> Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds How many training seconds are required to be able to manage an average of 30 seconds? Or do you mean destructive? If yes, is it loud? Maybe the American locks are different (doubt it) but as a casual lockpicker I can say it's not as trivial as you make it sound. Or if you're talking about destructive methods rather than picking, that's still better than an el…

>How many training seconds are required to be able to manage an average of 30 seconds?

An afternoon of practice starting with some shitty master locks and then moving up to some doorknobs you bought at a home improvement store.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#28

Post by ziari »

lawlessone wrote: post #25
_v7gu wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My current apartment has a "smart lock" system for entry into the building. The system becomes unresponsive with no electricity, which means you're locked out. But you can kick open the door anyways, so at least that's an alternative to being locked out.

Jesus, what if that failed in a fire?

Nearly all smart locks can be mechanically unlocked from the inside (as required by fire safety regulations).

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#29

Post by danpalmer »

There are many issues with smart locks, but one thing I'm quite interested by are the entry policies you could set. As a renter, two things spring to mind: the ability to immediately remove previous tenants access to the home, and the ability to potentially enforce the legal notice period for the landlord entering the home (in the UK a landlord must provide 24 hours notice before entering).

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#30

Post by lqet »

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0]

I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down.

[0] as others have mentioned below, this does not seem to be enforceable, even if it is part of the contract, and you are free to change locks after moving in. You only have to give the landlord access to the apartment in case of emergency, and he may enter forcefully if you don't do that (or if you are not present / have changed locks).

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